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Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things

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Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: Skyangel 
Posted: 08/14/2010 06:50 AM 
 
1 Cor 2 :14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The bible tells us the natural man can't understand anything spiritual because they are spiritually discerned.
What does that mean to you readers?

According to the bible, a person needs to use spiritual discernment in order to understand spiritual things.

The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything. The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.

How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?

Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.

Spiritual discernment comes from what science calls the right brain as opposed to the left brain.

Check/test which side of the brain you are using the most here> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right-brain-v-left-brain/story-e6frf7jo-1111114...

Your mind can make that animation on the above site turn around depending on whether you are using the right or left brain.

To some people the dancer is turning clockwise and to others she is dancing anticlockwise.

Which way do you see her turning?

If you cannot see her turning clockwise, you are not using the spiritual side of your mind ( right brain functions) at all.


Re: Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: Zzyzx 
Posted: 08/14/2010 07:57 AM 
 
.








Skyangel wrote:
The bible tells us the natural man can't understand anything spiritual because they are spiritually discerned.

What does that mean to you readers?


It means to me that unidentified writers promoting religion two thousand years ago may have THOUGHT so and claimed and wrote that. Their opinions mean nothing to me.









Skyangel wrote:
According to the bible, a person needs to use spiritual discernment in order to understand spiritual things.


According to the same book, donkeys and snakes converse with humans, seas part and storms calm on command, and dead bodies come back to life – not an auspicious start in developing credibility with the non-gullible.









Skyangel wrote:
The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything.


Okay. That seems to work in the real world. What’s the problem?









Skyangel wrote:
The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.


What EXACTLY is “spiritual proof”?









Skyangel wrote:
How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?


Non-spiritual people expect those who attempt to convince them to worship invisible, undetectable “gods” to show REASONS for doing so – reasons more credible than testimonials, conjecture, opinion and tales written in ancient ignorance.









Skyangel wrote:
Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.


Correction: Science is “incapable of proving spiritual things” because science studies the real world based upon observation of real, demonstrable evidence and depends upon its results being verifiable by anyone interested. Scientific study is based upon things that are real, not mere mental images.









Skyangel wrote:
Which way do you see her turning?


I can see the dancer turning either way I choose and reverse her apparent direction at will. What does that “mean”?


 
Author: JoeyKnothead 
Posted: 08/14/2010 08:07 AM 
 
From the OP:









Opie wrote:

1 Cor 2 :14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The bible tells us the natural man can't understand anything spiritual because they are spiritually discerned.
What does that mean to you readers?


Folks'll make up excuses as to why their supernatural claims can't be supported.









Opie wrote:

According to the bible, a person needs to use spiritual discernment in order to understand spiritual things.


Imagine that.









Opie wrote:

The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything. The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.


I don't reject it so much as I ask folks to show they speak truth regarding spiritual matters.









Opie wrote:

How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?


This is the problem of those who make claims regarding spiritual stuff.









Opie wrote:

Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.


Or is it that there's no spirit world there to examine?









Opie wrote:

Spiritual discernment comes from what science calls the right brain as opposed to the left brain.


I don't doubt the side of the brain some consider closely related to imagination would have a role in spiritual discernment.

Is it now reasonable to conclude folks claiming spiritual discernment are using only half their brain?









Opie wrote:

To some people the dancer is turning clockwise and to others she is dancing anticlockwise.


For me a brief and slight redirection of eyesight gives the appearance of the dancer changing directions. I s'pose I'm hopping in and out of the spirit realm.









Opie wrote:

If you cannot see her turning clockwise, you are not using the spiritual side of your mind ( right brain functions) at all.


I find it quite telling that an illusion would be used to support spirit claims.


Re: Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: Anonymous 
Posted: 08/14/2010 08:21 AM 
 
Skyangel wrote:








Quote:
1 Cor 2 :14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
The bible tells us the natural man can't understand anything spiritual because they are spiritually discerned.
What does that mean to you readers?
According to the bible, a person needs to use spiritual discernment in order to understand spiritual things.
The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything. The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.
How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?


This all sounds like something a deluded man like Paul would claim. Snake oil salesman used this tactic, implying that there was something 'special' and transforming about their potions, wanting commitment to buy based on speculation and dogma without evidence. The key component of this tactic is to shame,denegrate and denounce that upon which people typically rely to test claims, ie, verifiabe,credible evidence...and the reasoning, logic and common sense we all use to make rational inferences therefrom.
"Ladies and gentlemen, friends and foes, step right up to get the cure of the century. No man can trust himself. No man can understand the magical properties of what I hold in my hand unless he can trust what I say and suspend judgement in all that has gone before...this is the one and true cure to all your ills ..only when you give up your doubts can you release the magic in this potion...science can't give you proof..questions can't help you...just believe my words and my "Bob's Balsam of life" will work wonders... and it's only $4."


 
Author: Zzyzx 
Posted: 08/14/2010 08:44 AM 
 
.
Zzyzx has donated 1000 tokens to Flail in recognition of an outstanding summation.


 
Author: ahigherway 
Posted: 08/14/2010 10:10 AM 
 
My question is:

Since man cannot understand and/or discern spiritual things, then how can he "make a decision for Christ?"

Blessings,
brian


Re: Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: I AM ALL I AM 
Posted: 08/14/2010 11:41 AM 
 








Skyangel wrote:
... Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.

Spiritual discernment comes from what science calls the right brain as opposed to the left brain. ....



G'day Skyangel.

Left brain activity is regarded as logical, right brain as imagination.

Does this mean that your "spiritual discernment" comes solely from your imagination ?

Why should anyone believe your imagination over their own imagination ?

Is your imagination exclusively true ?


Re: Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: Skyangel 
Posted: 08/14/2010 02:16 PM 
 








Zzyzx wrote:
.

It means to me that unidentified writers promoting religion two thousand years ago may have THOUGHT so and claimed and wrote that. Their opinions mean nothing to me.


Can you see the relationship between what the bible describes and what is described on the link in the OP which shows the difference between the right and left parts of the brain?









Zzyzx wrote:

According to the same book, donkeys and snakes converse with humans, seas part and storms calm on command, and dead bodies come back to life – not an auspicious start in developing credibility with the non-gullible.


That very fact ought to be telling you that the bible is a metaphoric and symbolic book which is not supposed to be taken literally. Those who take it literally are the gullible ones. Those who rubbish it because of its metaphoric stories are just as gullible since they need to take it literally in order to rubbish it in the first place.









Skyangel wrote:
The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything.










Zzyzx wrote:

Okay. That seems to work in the real world. What’s the problem?


The only problem is in the inability of those who's thinking patterns are mainly controlled by the left brain to comprehend the concepts of the right brain and understand the people who's thinking patterns are mainly controlled by the right brain.
I am explaining that the "natural man" described in the bible is not a different man to the "spiritual man" but is rather the person who is mainly controlled by the left brain. People obviously do not have two brains. They only have one. You are both the natural man as well as the spiritual man. Whether or not you can comprehend spiritual things depends on how much you allow your brain to become balanced on both sides, ie logic balanced with philosophy; facts balanced with beliefs; the detailed analysis balanced with seeing the big picture., left brain balanced with the right brain.









Skyangel wrote:
The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.










Zzyzx wrote:

What EXACTLY is “spiritual proof”?


It is proof of abstract thinking. It is proof that people have the ability to think symbolically, or in "pictures" and turn their imaginations, the pictures they "see" in their minds into a "reality" so other people can also see their thoughts in pictures. The proof of that is in fictional writings, movie making, art, music, etc.










Skyangel wrote:
How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?










Zzyzx wrote:

Non-spiritual people expect those who attempt to convince them to worship invisible, undetectable “gods” to show REASONS for doing so – reasons more credible than testimonials, conjecture, opinion and tales written in ancient ignorance.


Can you prove any tales were written in ancient ignorance as opposed to ancient wisdom?










Skyangel wrote:
Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.










Zzyzx wrote:

Correction: Science is “incapable of proving spiritual things” because science studies the real world based upon observation of real, demonstrable evidence and depends upon its results being verifiable by anyone interested. Scientific study is based upon things that are real, not mere mental images.



Science today has obviously proved that the two sides of the human brain have different functions. 2000 years ago they did not have the brain scan machines we do today yet people back then seemed to intuitively know and understand that the mind worked in two different ways. One side is logical and the other side is intuitive. The intuitive side is obviously illogical to the logical side of the mind. Has it ever occurred to you that the bible is merely describing both sides of the human mind and the apparent "conflict" between them which is not a conflict at all when you understand it? They did not call it left and right brain but they called it God and the devil. They perceived the "natural man" as the man who was so logical and focused on detail that he was incapable of standing back from himself in order to see the bigger picture.









Zzyzx wrote:

I can see the dancer turning either way I choose and reverse her apparent direction at will. What does that “mean”?



I can do the same and to me that means we can "change our minds" at will to use the right or left brain functions. To me it indicates that people who do not "see" spiritual things are not incapable of seeing them, they simply refuse to see them and prefer to stick to the logic side of the brain rather than look into the intuitive side of their own mind.


Re: Natural man cannot understand Spiritual things 
Author: Anonymous 
Posted: 08/14/2010 02:25 PM 
 








Zzyzx wrote:









Skyangel wrote:
Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.



Correction: Science is “incapable of proving spiritual things” because science studies the real world based upon observation of real, demonstrable evidence and depends upon its results being verifiable by anyone interested. Scientific study is based upon things that are real, not mere mental images.



Scientists are incapable of proving some spiritual things because of the limits of science. Things outside of those limits (perhaps 'current' limits) are not necessarily unreal or non-existent.


 
Author: Skyangel 
Posted: 08/14/2010 02:51 PM 
 








Opie wrote:

1 Cor 2 :14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The bible tells us the natural man can't understand anything spiritual because they are spiritually discerned.

What does that mean to you readers?











JoeyKnothead wrote:

Folks'll make up excuses as to why their supernatural claims can't be supported.


Can your imaginations be supported in any way at all? If so, in what way do you support your own imaginations?










Opie wrote:

According to the bible, a person needs to use spiritual discernment in order to understand spiritual things.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

Imagine that.


Sounds logical enough to me. What about you ?









Opie wrote:

The natural man is the man who is governed by his senses and wants physical proof of everything. The natural man rejects spiritual discernment and spiritual proof.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

I don't reject it so much as I ask folks to show they speak truth regarding spiritual matters.


Is that not similar to asking a person to provide proof of what they are imagining or "seeing" in their mind? Can you turn your own thoughts or imaginations into reality so others can literally see them?









Opie wrote:

How do any people who admit they are not spiritual expect to get proof of God or anything spiritual for that matter when they refuse to use spiritual discernment but want physical and sensual proof?










JoeyKnothead wrote:

This is the problem of those who make claims regarding spiritual stuff.


I disagree, the problem with understanding something is not with the one who understands it but with the one who does not understand it. The one who understands it cannot force anyone else to understand what they refuse to understand. All they can do is try their best to help others understand what they understand by describing it in different ways till the " light" goes on in the minds of those who are "in the dark" People need to desire to understand something before they will make any effort to understand it. Many people in debate forums do not want to understand spiritual things. All they want to do is "rubbish" them because they appear to be illogical. However the person who rubbishes the bigger picture in favour of the smaller details becomes the fool who cannot see the bigger picture because he is standing far too close to the wall. He wants proof of God but doesn't want to stand back far enough to see God.









Opie wrote:

Science is incapable of proving spiritual things because science does not use spiritual discernment.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

Or is it that there's no spirit world there to examine?


The 'spirit world" is what science has called "the right brain functions". It is the world of the abstract, the world of imagination, the world of symbolism ,images, visions, philosophy etc. Science has attributed these things to the right brain because of brain activity on that side of the brain when tested by Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging and positron emission tomography









Opie wrote:

Spiritual discernment comes from what science calls the right brain as opposed to the left brain.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

I don't doubt the side of the brain some consider closely related to imagination would have a role in spiritual discernment.

Is it now reasonable to conclude folks claiming spiritual discernment are using only half their brain?


As reasonable as it is to conclude that those who do not use spiritual discernment are also only using half their brain.
To use the whole brain you need to use both spiritual discernment as well as logic and you need to know how to work them both together to have a balanced and sound mind so you are not so logical that you are incapable of understanding spiritual things and not so spiritual that you are of no earthy good and throw away all logic.
Don't be a "half wit" who only use half your brain.









Opie wrote:

To some people the dancer is turning clockwise and to others she is dancing anticlockwise.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

For me a brief and slight redirection of eyesight gives the appearance of the dancer changing directions. I s'pose I'm hopping in and out of the spirit realm.


Yes, in a sense you are when you change from one perspective to another at will. It proves you can "change your mind" from using the right brain to the left brain at will.









Opie wrote:

If you cannot see her turning clockwise, you are not using the spiritual side of your mind ( right brain functions) at all.










JoeyKnothead wrote:

I find it quite telling that an illusion would be used to support spirit claims.



There are many illusions in life which we take for granted and perceive them as something they are not in reality. Sunrise and sunset, ie the sun appearing to move from east to west across the sky is one such illusion which we perceive as a reality. Much of Life is an illusion.

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