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Psalm 1:1 "...nor stands in the way of sinners"

Psalm 1:1 "...nor stands in the way of sinners" 
Author: fewwillfindit 
Posted: 04/19/2011 10:00 AM 
 
Source








salvation2011 wrote:
God also says not to stand in the way of another's choice to sin. Each man is responsible for his own choices.

Source








salvation2011 wrote:
...the bible instructs us not to stand in other peoples way, to let them behave and choose as they will...



My guess is that salvation2011 is referring to the following passage:









Psalm 1:1-2 ESV wrote:
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;

but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.



If so, it is my contention that this is a fundamental misinterpretation of this verse. There are three statements in the first part of the verse. Let's break them down.










Quote:
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked



"To walk" here, connotes following after or emulating the advice of the wicked.










Quote:
nor sits in the seat of scoffers



This means that we are advised not to emulate scoffers. It doesn't literally mean that there is a seat designed just for scoffers that we are not to sit in.

With the context and intended use established above, we shouldn't remove the following verse from the implied and intended meaning and take it to literally mean that we are not to stand in the way of sinners, meaning that we are not to impede sinners from sinning.









Quote:
nor stands in the way [path/road] of sinners



Using the supplied intent of the other two admonitions for interpretive precedence, this verse must mean that we are not to emulate sinners, i.e; stand with them on their path to sin, or take the path of sinners.

To bolster my interpretation, the NKJV translates way as path, as does the NASB:








Psalm 1:1 NKJV wrote:
Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;









Psalm 1:1 NASB wrote:
How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!



Another interesting thing to note. The loose paraphrases seem to agree:









NLT wrote:
Oh, the joys of those who do not follow the advice of the wicked, or stand around with sinners, or join in with mockers.









GWT wrote:
Blessed is the person who does not follow the advice of wicked people, take the path of sinners, or join in he company of mockers.




The Hebrew word for way/path is derek and means way, road, distance, journey, manner; a road (as trodden); figuratively, a course of life or mode of action.




Questions for debate:

  1. How do you interpret, "nor stands in the way of sinners" in light of the context?
  2. Is there scholarly precedence for both interpretations?
  3. Are there any other verses in the Bible that clearly state that we are not to impede a sinner from sinning?


 
Author: Adstar 
Posted: 04/19/2011 11:11 AM 
 
Not having read your prior discussion with 2011 i will not comment on the verse but will provide another in context.

Revelation 22
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


 
Author: fewwillfindit 
Posted: 04/19/2011 11:23 AM 
 








Adstar wrote:
Not having read your prior discussion with 2011 i will not comment on the verse but will provide another in context.

Revelation 22
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”




Right, and thatks for the scripture. I've always looked at that passage in Revelation to mean that at some point, perhaps upon Christ's return, the books are closed. No more chance at salvation, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” In other words, there will come a time when the condition you are in is the condition by which you are judged, without another chance to do anything about it.

Also, I did not have a discussion with salvation2011, I just disagree with that member's interpretation. All the pertinent info is above, including source links, so please feel free to offer your opinion.


 
Author: Adstar 
Posted: 04/20/2011 10:33 AM 
 








fewwillfindit wrote:








Adstar wrote:
Not having read your prior discussion with 2011 i will not comment on the verse but will provide another in context.

Revelation 22
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”




Right, and thatks for the scripture. I've always looked at that passage in Revelation to mean that at some point, perhaps upon Christ's return, the books are closed. No more chance at salvation, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” In other words, there will come a time when the condition you are in is the condition by which you are judged, without another chance to do anything about it.

Also, I did not have a discussion with salvation2011, I just disagree with that member's interpretation. All the pertinent info is above, including source links, so please feel free to offer your opinion.



Well as for the scripture you quoted i do not see it as sufficient backing for the stance.

But the scriptures i quoted in Revelation are for me backing for my belief that we should allow others the freedom to follow their own beliefs and ways even when they are in totally opposed to the revealed will of God. I believe Jesus made it clear that we should not judge others. So i don't believe in imposing anything upon others. Or using the threat of punishment to force others to believe in a certain way or live a certain way.

The kingdoms of this world are concerned about doing all that. Laws and law enforcement. it is in their court. Our Kingdom. The kingdom of Spirit that is of the Body of Christ whilst being in this world is not off this world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


 
Author: fewwillfindit 
Posted: 04/20/2011 11:38 AM 
 








Adstar wrote:
Well as for the scripture you quoted i do not see it as sufficient backing for the stance.

But the scriptures i quoted in Revelation are for me backing for my belief that we should allow others the freedom to follow their own beliefs and ways even when they are in totally opposed to the revealed will of God. I believe Jesus made it clear that we should not judge others. So i don't believe in imposing anything upon others. Or using the threat of punishment to force others to believe in a certain way or live a certain way.

The kingdoms of this world are concerned about doing all that. Laws and law enforcement. it is in their court. Our Kingdom. The kingdom of Spirit that is of the Body of Christ whilst being in this world is not off this world.



Yet we are to confront other believers with sin:









Matthew 18:15-17 ESV wrote:
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.



And we are commended for bringing a wandering brother back to the truth. This requires us to judge (determine) whether or not he has strayed from the truth:









James 5:19-20 ESV wrote:
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.



And there is this:









Luke 17:3-4 ESV wrote:
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."



In order to know if your brother sins, you have to determine (judge) if he has sinned. Then you rebuke him.

When Jesus admonishes us not to judge, he says, "Judge not...you hypocrite." He is saying that we cannot judge another hypocritically and self-righteously.









Matthew 7:1-5 ESV wrote:
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.



If we shouldn't judge, then the following wouldn't have been said:









John 7:24 ESV wrote:
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."



So we are to judge with right judgment, and not judge hypocritically.

However, I agree with your assessment. At this point in time, we are not to judge the world. We are instead to judge those inside the church:









1 Corinthians 5:12-13 ESV wrote:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."



Yet even this must mean to judge (convict), because we are still commanded to preach the Word, and in so doing, this will be looked at by unbelievers as judging, although to us it is merely reiterating what the Word says.
.


 
Author: Adstar 
Posted: 04/22/2011 10:30 AM 
 








fewwillfindit wrote:








Adstar wrote:
Well as for the scripture you quoted i do not see it as sufficient backing for the stance.

But the scriptures i quoted in Revelation are for me backing for my belief that we should allow others the freedom to follow their own beliefs and ways even when they are in totally opposed to the revealed will of God. I believe Jesus made it clear that we should not judge others. So i don't believe in imposing anything upon others. Or using the threat of punishment to force others to believe in a certain way or live a certain way.

The kingdoms of this world are concerned about doing all that. Laws and law enforcement. it is in their court. Our Kingdom. The kingdom of Spirit that is of the Body of Christ whilst being in this world is not off this world.



Yet we are to confront other believers with sin:



Yes. But not by threatening them with violence, of prison sentences, Or by seeking to enact religious laws as civil laws of state. We confront them with the Word of God. We convict/convince them of their sin by revealing to them that they are sinners. We use the weapon that is not physical. Not Carnal. We use the Word of God.











Quote:









Matthew 18:15-17 ESV wrote:
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.



And we are commended for bringing a wandering brother back to the truth. This requires us to judge (determine) whether or not he has strayed from the truth:









James 5:19-20 ESV wrote:
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.



And there is this:









Luke 17:3-4 ESV wrote:
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."



In order to know if your brother sins, you have to determine (judge) if he has sinned. Then you rebuke him.



Wait... we have to make a distinction here. A sinning Brother believer ( and i am assuming here that your talking about someone who believes in the atonement of the Messiah Jesus) is not the same as someone who no longer believes Jesus.









Quote:
When Jesus admonishes us not to judge, he says, "Judge not...you hypocrite." He is saying that we cannot judge another hypocritically and self-righteously.



I believe Jesus was talking about judging as in condemning and passing out judgement. We are to give warning and use the Word of God to convict, But we do not stone an adulterer or carry out any punishment. Jesus removed the curse of the Law (death, the punishment) from us. Therefore we are not in this world to inflict punishment upon others for sin. But judging as in assessing and giving warning this is not carrying out punishment.









Quote:








Matthew 7:1-5 ESV wrote:
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.



If we shouldn't judge, then the following wouldn't have been said:









John 7:24 ESV wrote:
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."




This is about judgeing/assesing rather than about Judgeing/delivering punishment.

Judging can be seen as two things. Similar but very different.

1) Judging= making an assessment, investigating something, giving warning.

2) Judging= Sitting in judgement and meating out punishment for transgressions of the law.

We are to do No1 but we are not to do No2. It is important for you to understand what i mean about the two different types of judgement. One word describes two related but different things.










Quote:

However, I agree with your assessment. At this point in time, we are not to judge the world. We are instead to judge those inside the church:



I believe we are to No1 Judge the world and fellow believers.

But we are not to No2 Judge the world or fellow believers.











Quote:









1 Corinthians 5:12-13 ESV wrote:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."



Yet even this must mean to judge (convict), because we are still commanded to preach the Word, and in so doing, this will be looked at by unbelievers as judging, although to us it is merely reiterating what the Word says.



The evil person within the body of Christ. is not in the body of Christ in spirit and therefore having nothing more to do with that person until such time as they acknowledge their evil and repent is not the same as executing them or throwing them in prison. Yes we preach the word but we know that all sinners who believe Jesus will have their sins forgiven. I believe this person called "the evil person" is not about sin but about false beliefs, or denial of the Word of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

.


 
Author: fewwillfindit 
Posted: 04/22/2011 12:41 PM 
 
Hmmm. I agree with most of that. Your responses indicate that you thought that I meant something that I didn't.

Anyhow, we are for the most part in agreement.


 
Author: Adstar 
Posted: 04/23/2011 08:37 AM 
 








fewwillfindit wrote:
Hmmm. I agree with most of that. Your responses indicate that you thought that I meant something that I didn't.

Anyhow, we are for the most part in agreement.



Cool. Nice feeling to be in agreement. Feels a bit strange for me too. Don't often find myself in this situation on forums. lol


All Praise The Ancient of Days

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