DebatingChristianity.com | Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma


The Bible forbids the tattoos!

The Bible forbids the tattoos! 
Author: PetriFB 
Posted: 08/03/2011 11:01 AM 
 
Is the prohibition taking the tattoos valid in the New Covenant? I believe that it is valid and give you these verses.

2 Pe 1:
1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and legate of Jesus the Messiah,—to those who have obtained equally precious faith with us, through the righteousness of our lord and Redeemer, Jesus the Messiah;—
2 may grace and peace abound to you through the recognition of our lord Jesus the Messiah,
3 as the giver to us of all things that be of the power of god, unto life and the fear of god, through the recognition of him who hath called us unto his own glory and moral excellence:
4 wherein he hath given you very great and precious promises; that by them ye might become partakers of the nature of god, while ye flee from the corruptions of the lusts that are in the world.

The New Testament shows us that how we must serve and believe in God. God has given to us the Holy Spirit as the power and aid that we can understand what the Bible teaches.

If we could believe in God by taking the tattoo, in which is Bible verses or reads the Lord Jesus and so on, so this kind of command should be in the Bible. Tattooing was very common in the world where apostles lived. If the will of God would have been to make "Biblical" tattoos, so God would have said that you must make those kinds of tattoos. However, in the New Testament is not a command to make tattoos. For this reason, I don't believe that it is the will of God to take the tattoos.

Some people have said, for example, that the Bible doesn't speak anything about the bicycle, so you can't use the bicycle. The bicycle is harmless and useful vehicle to move from place to place. Of course you can do good and useful things, although they are not mentioned in the Bible, if they are not against the will of God. Making Bible verses as the tattoo is the question showing the faith, which one has. Riding by bicycle is not showing and living by faith, but ordinary deed. Riding a bicycle and taking a tattoo cannot compare with each other when we understand before mentioned example, and the fact that when it is a question about how we must believe in God, so it must be found in the Bible. Riding by bicycle is not a matter of faith, but just an ordinary everyday thing.

The Bible teaches us that serving of God is not the outward issue, but inward. Believer testimony and faith must be the inward issue by the Holy Spirit accordance with the word of God. God said by the prophet Jeremiah that in the New Covenant, God puts His law to inwards parts and writes His law to the hearts of His people. Biblical faith must be written to inner man to his heart and not outwardly to his skin.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The Bible doesn't teach serving God by the tattoos, so tattooing is against the will of God.

The whole article is here: http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/Bibleandtattoos.html


 
Author: Darias 
Posted: 08/03/2011 01:13 PM 
 
The New Testament doesn't mention a lot of things; you are isolating a single thing not mentioned and claiming that because it is not mentioned, it is against God's will.

Essentially, what you are doing is substituting your own moral values (things you find acceptable or unacceptable) for the will of God -- using absence of scriptural command to do so.

Anyone could do this really. Older generations who oppose rock music, the internet -- Twitter and Facebook -- could easily say the same thing. These are "worldly" and "against the will of God." Even though Christians have utilized cultural customs throughout time to spread the faith. Whether it's Paul speaking about "winning the race" thereby utilizing Greek cultural customs to illustrate a religious point, or whether it's Jeremy Camp in the 20th and 21st centuries who utilizes his talent in rock music to spread a Christian message.

You do acknowledge that people can claim that bicycling is against the will of God, but you go on to claim that it is an "everyday thing," whereas tattooing is not an "everyday thing" and is morally objectionable -- even if the tattoos serve the purpose of witnessing to others and reminding the wearer and those he surrounds about the love of Christ.

Can you demonstrate (Biblically [New Testament Please], rationally, etc.) that tattoos, one among many cultural customs not mentioned at all in the New Testament, are inherently worse and more immoral than ear piercing, dying one's hair, getting one's teeth straightened, or riding a bike?

If you cannot, then people should be able to get tattoos, and tattoos that help spread a Christian message should above all be encouraged.

To be honest I think this is just another example of a circumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, and obeying Mosaic Law to be a true Christian issue -- the same thing Paul and Peter fussed about...

It should be an issue of conscious.

If you believe that getting a tattoo is like an outward expression and confession of your own inward faith -- much like baptism -- and if you feel it witnesses to others -- then get it.

However if you believe that getting a tattoo makes you look like a thug and a criminal and leads young people astray -- or if you are ashamed of what others might think of the tattoo, then don't get one.

If drinking with a friend is a good way to socialize and better spread the message of God, as Christ did -- and as many European cultures do -- then drink in moderation.

If drinking is seen as a vice, a sin, and a horrible witness to Christ, as Southern Baptists believe, then have a diet Pepsi instead.



For your information, I don't have a tattoo, and I'm not a practicing drinker, but I don't think either of those would make me less of a good Christian -- unless you somehow think that religious pious holy people are more important in God's eyes than the common man; I think Jesus would beg to differ.


 
Author: PetriFB 
Posted: 08/03/2011 01:26 PM 
 








Darias wrote:
The New Testament doesn't mention a lot of things; you are isolating a single thing not mentioned and claiming that because it is not mentioned, it is against God's will.

Essentially, what you are doing is substituting your own moral values (things you find acceptable or unacceptable) for the will of God -- using absence of scriptural command to do so.

Anyone could do this really. Older generations who oppose rock music, the internet -- Twitter and Facebook -- could easily say the same thing. These are "worldly" and "against the will of God." Even though Christians have utilized cultural customs throughout time to spread the faith. Whether it's Paul speaking about "winning the race" thereby utilizing Greek cultural customs to illustrate a religious point, or whether it's Jeremy Camp in the 20th and 21st centuries who utilizes his talent in rock music to spread a Christian message.

You do acknowledge that people can claim that bicycling is against the will of God, but you go on to claim that it is an "everyday thing," whereas tattooing is not an "everyday thing" and is morally objectionable -- even if the tattoos serve the purpose of witnessing to others and reminding the wearer and those he surrounds about the love of Christ.

Can you demonstrate (Biblically [New Testament Please], rationally, etc.) that tattoos, one among many cultural customs not mentioned at all in the New Testament, are inherently worse and more immoral than ear piercing, dying one's hair, getting one's teeth straightened, or riding a bike?

If you cannot, then people should be able to get tattoos, and tattoos that help spread a Christian message should above all be encouraged.

To be honest I think this is just another example of a circumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, and obeying Mosaic Law to be a true Christian issue -- the same thing Paul and Peter fussed about...

It should be an issue of conscious.

If you believe that getting a tattoo is like an outward expression and confession of your own inward faith -- much like baptism -- and if you feel it witnesses to others -- then get it.

However if you believe that getting a tattoo makes you look like a thug and a criminal and leads young people astray -- or if you are ashamed of what others might think of the tattoo, then don't get one.

If drinking with a friend is a good way to socialize and better spread the message of God, as Christ did -- and as many European cultures do -- then drink in moderation.

If drinking is seen as a vice, a sin, and a horrible witness to Christ, as Southern Baptists believe, then have a diet Pepsi instead.



For your information, I don't have a tattoo, and I'm not a practicing drinker, but I don't think either of those would make me less of a good Christian -- unless you somehow think that religious pious holy people are more important in God's eyes than the common man; I think Jesus would beg to differ.



Some Christians teach that taking of the tattoo is the matter of conscience. The Bible doesn't teach that there are matters of conscience that everybody can obey or not to obey. If there would be matters of conscience, there would be things that are sin to someone and not to other one. The Bible doesn't teach that a believer can decide in his conscience that what is a sin and what is not a sin, or what is the will of God and what is not the will of God. The word of God (the Bible) determines always what is the will of God and what is not the will God. A believer does never decide by his conscience what the Bible teaches, because the Bible tells it what is right and wrong and the will of God or sin.

1 Cor 10:
28 but if any one shall say to you, this pertaineth to a sacrifice; eat not, for the sake of him who told you, and for conscience’s sake.
29 the conscience I speak of, is not your own, but his who told you. but why is my liberty judged of, by the conscience of others?

1 Cor 10 teach that conscience didn't mean your own conscience, but to another who offended. Verse 29 doesn't teach that a believer has liberty to decide in his conscience how to believe the Bible. Liberty on verse 29 means liberty in Christ Jesus, in which a believer is freed from burdens of sins and wickedness that he could believe and live according to the will of God.

The Lord Jesus has made believers free from the slavery of sin. This freedom comes true by the power of the Holy Spirit, in which believer can live from the grace of God. This is the process of growth in the faith, where a believer learns to reject and abandon sins and live more and more profoundly by the will of God. Liberty in Christ Jesus doesn't mean that believer can live in sins or decide how to believe in God. The word of God always determines how we should believe in the Lord Jesus.

Tattooing also can be harmful, hazardous and dangerous. Allergy to tattoo colors is possible. Many substances used on tattooing are poisonous and is possible get some diseases, in which the worst is cancer. If the skin become inflamed on the area of tattooing, so it can lead blood- poisoning. Some researches have stated that tetragenic substances used on tattooing can cause forming of deformation. Some tattooing colors can contain mercury compounds, heavy metals, azo dyes and allergen products. Azo dyes is known to cause cancer.

Tattooing substances penetrate under the skin to the depth of one or two millimeter. The place where tattooing color remain is the dermis. It obvious and clear that tattooing colors penetrates inside of the body and can cause many kinds of problems. Remarkable is that poisonous substances of tattooing colors remains inside the body of a man as long as he lives. This makes tattooing very dangerous matter. Dangerous substances of tattooing can cause unpleasant disease after many years because the body is constantly dealing with the toxins, which are used in tattooing.

Experts say that bacteria and viruses can penetrate under the broken skin during tattooing. Although all instruments would be sterilized there is always a possibility that bacteria and viruses can make damage during tattooing. Tattooing can cause allergic reactions, diverse inflammation diseases and blood disease.

Removing of tattoos can be very problematic. Some say that by using modern technology tattooing colors are easy to remove from the skin, especially by UV light or laser. It is not so easy, because, for example, there are cases where removing by laser leave to the body dangerous tattooing colors. There have been cases, in which black tattooing color has gone into the lymph node by removing of laser.

Some tattooing substances are very dangerous as mercury, cadmium, lead, nickel, ferrocyanide, azo dyes, arsenic and many other substances. Many tattoo makers claim that they use safety substances, but it is obvious and clear that many tattoo substances are very dangerous and poisonous.

Many tattooing substances are very dangerous and poisonous, which make tattooing a health risk. The will of God is not that we voluntarily poison ourselves by the very poisonous substances that are used in tattooing.

If someone has taken a tattoo and believed that it is right, but later understood that it is not right and repented, so you can't accuse them. People cannot undo acts of the past and in many cases removing of a tattoo is impossible. When a believer understands that tattooing is wrong, so the case is closed, and we can't and have no rights to accuse him acts of the past, which he can't undo. In this case repentance and change of mind in the heart is enough. Usually repentance rectifies situations (change of the heart leads in practice reject sins and live in righteous life) and lead a believer away from sins. However, there are cases in which repentance can't change situations. For example, a murder and killing are cases about which repentance doesn't bring dead one back to life. It is same concerning tattooing, because most cases you can't remove a tattoo.

Everyone makes mistakes as a believer, and therefore, we should be gracious one another and forgive, because God also forgives us when we have repented our mistakes.


 
Author: Darias 
Posted: 08/03/2011 02:01 PM 
 








PetriFB wrote:








Darias wrote:
The New Testament doesn't mention a lot of things; you are isolating a single thing not mentioned and claiming that because it is not mentioned, it is against God's will.

Essentially, what you are doing is substituting your own moral values (things you find acceptable or unacceptable) for the will of God -- using absence of scriptural command to do so.

Anyone could do this really. Older generations who oppose rock music, the internet -- Twitter and Facebook -- could easily say the same thing. These are "worldly" and "against the will of God." Even though Christians have utilized cultural customs throughout time to spread the faith. Whether it's Paul speaking about "winning the race" thereby utilizing Greek cultural customs to illustrate a religious point, or whether it's Jeremy Camp in the 20th and 21st centuries who utilizes his talent in rock music to spread a Christian message.

You do acknowledge that people can claim that bicycling is against the will of God, but you go on to claim that it is an "everyday thing," whereas tattooing is not an "everyday thing" and is morally objectionable -- even if the tattoos serve the purpose of witnessing to others and reminding the wearer and those he surrounds about the love of Christ.

Can you demonstrate (Biblically [New Testament Please], rationally, etc.) that tattoos, one among many cultural customs not mentioned at all in the New Testament, are inherently worse and more immoral than ear piercing, dying one's hair, getting one's teeth straightened, or riding a bike?

If you cannot, then people should be able to get tattoos, and tattoos that help spread a Christian message should above all be encouraged.

To be honest I think this is just another example of a circumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, and obeying Mosaic Law to be a true Christian issue -- the same thing Paul and Peter fussed about...

It should be an issue of conscious.

If you believe that getting a tattoo is like an outward expression and confession of your own inward faith -- much like baptism -- and if you feel it witnesses to others -- then get it.

However if you believe that getting a tattoo makes you look like a thug and a criminal and leads young people astray -- or if you are ashamed of what others might think of the tattoo, then don't get one.

If drinking with a friend is a good way to socialize and better spread the message of God, as Christ did -- and as many European cultures do -- then drink in moderation.

If drinking is seen as a vice, a sin, and a horrible witness to Christ, as Southern Baptists believe, then have a diet Pepsi instead.



For your information, I don't have a tattoo, and I'm not a practicing drinker, but I don't think either of those would make me less of a good Christian -- unless you somehow think that religious pious holy people are more important in God's eyes than the common man; I think Jesus would beg to differ.



Some Christians teach that taking of the tattoo is the matter of conscience. The Bible doesn't teach that there are matters of conscience that everybody can obey or not to obey. If there would be matters of conscience, there would be things that are sin to someone and not to other one. The Bible doesn't teach that a believer can decide in his conscience that what is a sin and what is not a sin, or what is the will of God and what is not the will of God. The word of God (the Bible) determines always what is the will of God and what is not the will God. A believer does never decide by his conscience what the Bible teaches, because the Bible tells it what is right and wrong and the will of God or sin.

1 Cor 10:
28 but if any one shall say to you, this pertaineth to a sacrifice; eat not, for the sake of him who told you, and for conscience’s sake.
29 the conscience I speak of, is not your own, but his who told you. but why is my liberty judged of, by the conscience of others?

1 Cor 10 teach that conscience didn't mean your own conscience, but to another who offended. Verse 29 doesn't teach that a believer has liberty to decide in his conscience how to believe the Bible. Liberty on verse 29 means liberty in Christ Jesus, in which a believer is freed from burdens of sins and wickedness that he could believe and live according to the will of God.

The Lord Jesus has made believers free from the slavery of sin. This freedom comes true by the power of the Holy Spirit, in which believer can live from the grace of God. This is the process of growth in the faith, where a believer learns to reject and abandon sins and live more and more profoundly by the will of God. Liberty in Christ Jesus doesn't mean that believer can live in sins or decide how to believe in God. The word of God always determines how we should believe in the Lord Jesus.

Tattooing also can be harmful, hazardous and dangerous. Allergy to tattoo colors is possible. Many substances used on tattooing are poisonous and is possible get some diseases, in which the worst is cancer. If the skin become inflamed on the area of tattooing, so it can lead blood- poisoning. Some researches have stated that tetragenic substances used on tattooing can cause forming of deformation. Some tattooing colors can contain mercury compounds, heavy metals, azo dyes and allergen products. Azo dyes is known to cause cancer.

Tattooing substances penetrate under the skin to the depth of one or two millimeter. The place where tattooing color remain is the dermis. It obvious and clear that tattooing colors penetrates inside of the body and can cause many kinds of problems. Remarkable is that poisonous substances of tattooing colors remains inside the body of a man as long as he lives. This makes tattooing very dangerous matter. Dangerous substances of tattooing can cause unpleasant disease after many years because the body is constantly dealing with the toxins, which are used in tattooing.

Experts say that bacteria and viruses can penetrate under the broken skin during tattooing. Although all instruments would be sterilized there is always a possibility that bacteria and viruses can make damage during tattooing. Tattooing can cause allergic reactions, diverse inflammation diseases and blood disease.

Removing of tattoos can be very problematic. Some say that by using modern technology tattooing colors are easy to remove from the skin, especially by UV light or laser. It is not so easy, because, for example, there are cases where removing by laser leave to the body dangerous tattooing colors. There have been cases, in which black tattooing color has gone into the lymph node by removing of laser.

Some tattooing substances are very dangerous as mercury, cadmium, lead, nickel, ferrocyanide, azo dyes, arsenic and many other substances. Many tattoo makers claim that they use safety substances, but it is obvious and clear that many tattoo substances are very dangerous and poisonous.

Many tattooing substances are very dangerous and poisonous, which make tattooing a health risk. The will of God is not that we voluntarily poison ourselves by the very poisonous substances that are used in tattooing.

If someone has taken a tattoo and believed that it is right, but later understood that it is not right and repented, so you can't accuse them. People cannot undo acts of the past and in many cases removing of a tattoo is impossible. When a believer understands that tattooing is wrong, so the case is closed, and we can't and have no rights to accuse him acts of the past, which he can't undo. In this case repentance and change of mind in the heart is enough. Usually repentance rectifies situations (change of the heart leads in practice reject sins and live in righteous life) and lead a believer away from sins. However, there are cases in which repentance can't change situations. For example, a murder and killing are cases about which repentance doesn't bring dead one back to life. It is same concerning tattooing, because most cases you can't remove a tattoo.

Everyone makes mistakes as a believer, and therefore, we should be gracious one another and forgive, because God also forgives us when we have repented our mistakes.



Okay now you are claiming that getting tattoos are a sin? That's a mighty strong stance to be taking upon which God is silent is it not?

First you make a claim about the will of God using an absence of scriptural instruction; now you claim that that absence is strong evidence that tattooing is sinful.

No the Bible doesn't say one can determine what sins they can choose to do or not to do based upon their conscious, but it does say that one can do things as their conscious convicts them when there is no clear instruction otherwise.

You cited a few sentences of scripture ignoring the context surrounding them. Here read the whole thing:









1 Corinthians 10:23-33, ESV wrote:
Do All to the Glory of God

23“All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. 25Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.” 27If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
_____


SOURCE



If someone wishes to get a tattoo, a tattoo which not only reminds him/her of their devotion and love for God, but one that which also witnesses to others -- why should their liberty in doing all things be condemned by your conscious which objects to it?

Who are you to determine what is and isn't sin when you have no Biblical evidence to back it up?

Upon what grounds have you determined that tattooing is bad, other than some medical risks? You certainly have no scriptural support for it.

If what was sinful was determined by the possible risks than fasting would be a sin. Getting Baptized would be a sin (risk of drowning). Missionary work would be a sin (risk of getting killed by disease or angry villagers).

You are desperately clinging to whatever "experts" say, when the fact is you cite no evidence, Biblical or temporal to back up your claims.

Yes, there are some risks in getting a tattoo, as there is in surgery, liposuction, face lifts, getting wisdom teeth removed, laser-eye surgery, ear piercings, etc. As for tattooing, great deal of it has to do with how hygienic the tattooer is -- and whether or not you are allergic to certain dyes. One can avoid unnecessary risks by going to a professional, and not getting tattooed by an ex-prisoner with a metal coat-hanger at the back of an alley.

But if a Christian really wants to witness to others and show how much he is devoted to Christ by getting a tattoo, then why water down his faith with a lecture of "the risks" ? Why condemn him as a sinner? What's next --- repent of your horrible hair-style by getting a proper 60s comb-over like the good Lord intended?


answer 
Author: PetriFB 
Posted: 08/03/2011 02:28 PM 
 
Most of the commandments of the Old Covenant are overruled. However, all commandments of the Old Covenant haven't overruled. For example, the Old Testament's prohibition on eating of the blood is still valid in the New Covenant. One very important observation is that the New Covenant changed the law, but didn't remove it completely. Changing of the law left the Ten Commandments in power and also some other commandments. The high priesthood of the Lord Jesus and His atonement annulled all the laws of the temple service and offerings of the Old Covenant.

The command that you can't print any marks upon your skin has given in the era of the Old Covenant, so is it still valid in the era of the New Covenant or not?

This is a good and important question. Generally, from the New Testament, we can find confirmation that which commands of the Old Covenant are valid in the New Covenant. This confirmation is sometimes written directly such as prohibition eating the blood or indirectly in such a way that we can understand it.

Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Some people teach that this command refers grieving to the dead ones, in which the Gentiles mourned the dead ones by cutting their skin and taking the tattoo. However, this is a false teaching, because this verse has two different commands;

- Do not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead
- Do not print any marks upon you

The command do not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead ones was given that the Jews wouldn't make as many Gentiles have done. Many Gentile nations have manners to make very deep wounds to face, hands and feet. The purposes of those wounds were honor the dead ones. To many nations cutting of the flesh was a sign of honor and appease offering to idols who "ruled" dead ones and the tombs.

Some Gentiles could take tattoo in commemoration and honor of the dead one. In spite of that Lev 19:28 has two different commands, which the latter denies tattoos.

The command do not print any marks upon you in the Old Testament is attached to worshiping of idols. Ancient Gentile nations have manners to put tattoos on their skin. Those tattoos described idol worshiping, and on tattoos might be the image of idol. In the Old Testament, tattoos were denied, because they were connected to worshiping of idols.

Some believers teach that Lev 19:28 was the commandment of the Old Covenant, and it isn't anymore valid. As I brought up earlier, so all commands of the Old Covenant aren't annulled in the era of the New Covenant. I bring forth few commands of Leviticus 19, which are still valid in the New Covenant:

- Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

- Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

The New Covenant hasn't annulled prohibition eating of the blood, prohibition to use enchantment, prohibition observes times (this means for Hebrew to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft), prohibition to contact familiar spirits and seek after wizards. All of those commands are still valid and as prohibition to the congregation of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant annulled large amount the Old Covenant commands. The Ten Commandments are still valid in the New Covenant. The commands of the Old Covenant are still valid that are equal with the teaching of the New Covenant and what has mentioned to be valid in the New Covenant.

Some Christians teach that taking of the tattoo is the matter of conscience. The Bible doesn't teach that there are matters of conscience that everybody can obey or not to obey. If there would be matters of conscience, there would be things that are sin to someone and not to other one. The Bible doesn't teach that a believer can decide in his conscience that what is a sin and what is not a sin, or what is the will of God and what is not the will of God. The word of God (the Bible) determines always what is the will of God and what is not the will God. A believer does never decide by his conscience what the Bible teaches, because the Bible tells it what is right and wrong and the will of God or sin.

1 Cor 10:
28 but if any one shall say to you, this pertaineth to a sacrifice; eat not, for the sake of him who told you, and for conscience’s sake.
29 the conscience I speak of, is not your own, but his who told you. but why is my liberty judged of, by the conscience of others?

1 Cor 10 teach that conscience didn't mean your own conscience, but to another who offended. Verse 29 doesn't teach that a believer has liberty to decide in his conscience how to believe the Bible. Liberty on verse 29 means liberty in Christ Jesus, in which a believer is freed from burdens of sins and wickedness that he could believe and live according to the will of God.

The Lord Jesus has made believers free from the slavery of sin. This freedom comes true by the power of the Holy Spirit, in which believer can live from the grace of God. This is the process of growth in the faith, where a believer learns to reject and abandon sins and live more and more profoundly by the will of God. Liberty in Christ Jesus doesn't mean that believer can live in sins or decide how to believe in God. The word of God always determines how we should believe in the Lord Jesus.


 
Author: Cain 
Posted: 08/03/2011 07:54 PM 
 
Sorry, but your Lord had tattoos as did any Magus worth a damn back then . . .

Revelation 19:16 (King James Version)
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Keep in mind that the Christian scriptures were written hundreds of years later and in my opinion wouldn't truthfully reflect the Word of Yeshua, so it is more than likely that Yeshua the Nazarene as a great Magus that he would have been, did indeed have tattoos on him.


Re: answer 
Author: Darias 
Posted: 08/03/2011 08:09 PM 
 








PetriFB wrote:
Most of the commandments of the Old Covenant are overruled. However, all commandments of the Old Covenant haven't overruled. For example, the Old Testament's prohibition on eating of the blood is still valid in the New Covenant. One very important observation is that the New Covenant changed the law, but didn't remove it completely. Changing of the law left the Ten Commandments in power and also some other commandments. The high priesthood of the Lord Jesus and His atonement annulled all the laws of the temple service and offerings of the Old Covenant.

The command that you can't print any marks upon your skin has given in the era of the Old Covenant, so is it still valid in the era of the New Covenant or not?

This is a good and important question. Generally, from the New Testament, we can find confirmation that which commands of the Old Covenant are valid in the New Covenant. This confirmation is sometimes written directly such as prohibition eating the blood or indirectly in such a way that we can understand it.

Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Some people teach that this command refers grieving to the dead ones, in which the Gentiles mourned the dead ones by cutting their skin and taking the tattoo. However, this is a false teaching, because this verse has two different commands;

- Do not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead
- Do not print any marks upon you

The command do not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead ones was given that the Jews wouldn't make as many Gentiles have done. Many Gentile nations have manners to make very deep wounds to face, hands and feet. The purposes of those wounds were honor the dead ones. To many nations cutting of the flesh was a sign of honor and appease offering to idols who "ruled" dead ones and the tombs.

Some Gentiles could take tattoo in commemoration and honor of the dead one. In spite of that Lev 19:28 has two different commands, which the latter denies tattoos.

The command do not print any marks upon you in the Old Testament is attached to worshiping of idols. Ancient Gentile nations have manners to put tattoos on their skin. Those tattoos described idol worshiping, and on tattoos might be the image of idol. In the Old Testament, tattoos were denied, because they were connected to worshiping of idols.

Some believers teach that Lev 19:28 was the commandment of the Old Covenant, and it isn't anymore valid. As I brought up earlier, so all commands of the Old Covenant aren't annulled in the era of the New Covenant. I bring forth few commands of Leviticus 19, which are still valid in the New Covenant:

- Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

- Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

The New Covenant hasn't annulled prohibition eating of the blood, prohibition to use enchantment, prohibition observes times (this means for Hebrew to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft), prohibition to contact familiar spirits and seek after wizards. All of those commands are still valid and as prohibition to the congregation of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant annulled large amount the Old Covenant commands. The Ten Commandments are still valid in the New Covenant. The commands of the Old Covenant are still valid that are equal with the teaching of the New Covenant and what has mentioned to be valid in the New Covenant.

Some Christians teach that taking of the tattoo is the matter of conscience. The Bible doesn't teach that there are matters of conscience that everybody can obey or not to obey. If there would be matters of conscience, there would be things that are sin to someone and not to other one. The Bible doesn't teach that a believer can decide in his conscience that what is a sin and what is not a sin, or what is the will of God and what is not the will of God. The word of God (the Bible) determines always what is the will of God and what is not the will God. A believer does never decide by his conscience what the Bible teaches, because the Bible tells it what is right and wrong and the will of God or sin.

1 Cor 10:
28 but if any one shall say to you, this pertaineth to a sacrifice; eat not, for the sake of him who told you, and for conscience’s sake.
29 the conscience I speak of, is not your own, but his who told you. but why is my liberty judged of, by the conscience of others?

1 Cor 10 teach that conscience didn't mean your own conscience, but to another who offended. Verse 29 doesn't teach that a believer has liberty to decide in his conscience how to believe the Bible. Liberty on verse 29 means liberty in Christ Jesus, in which a believer is freed from burdens of sins and wickedness that he could believe and live according to the will of God.

The Lord Jesus has made believers free from the slavery of sin. This freedom comes true by the power of the Holy Spirit, in which believer can live from the grace of God. This is the process of growth in the faith, where a believer learns to reject and abandon sins and live more and more profoundly by the will of God. Liberty in Christ Jesus doesn't mean that believer can live in sins or decide how to believe in God. The word of God always determines how we should believe in the Lord Jesus.




Your original argument stated that the New Testament and New Covenant forbade the taking of tattoos, as they are modernly understood and used.

You originally claimed that the absence of teaching on this issue in the New Testament was proof that it was against the will of God, and therefore sinful.

Because you failed to back this claim, you revert to the sayings, teachings, and customs of the Old Covenant.

The Old Testament says a lot of things, some of which are appalling, and many of which are no longer valid under the New Covenant as Christians understand it today.

Yes, there are some things which carry over -- like the 10 Commandments for example. That does not mean that tattooing should be forbidden just because the Old Testament said so. It does not mean that commands against it necessarily carried over into the New Testament, just because your conscious firmly opposes it in spite of clear defined New Covenant clarification of the issue. You are assuming Old Testament law still applies upon lack of clarification in the new -- and you are making wild claims in calling it a sin against the will of God, when you cannot Biblically demonstrate this to a satisfactory level.

If it indeed was such an important issue, such would have been made more clear and defined in the New Testament. Yet it was not.

Instead other issues like circumcision and eating the meet of sacrificed idols became the issue -- along with other commands of Mosaic Law. Did Christians have to adhere to these Mosaic customs in order to be saved? Paul won the argument and the conclusion was no -- it is a matter of conscious, WHICH MEANT "Do not partake in customs which offend the host if you are a guest -- do not needlessly offend your Christian brothers by refusing the meal they make you for fear it was sacrificed to idols."

It would be like you walking into an ink shop waving a Bible around putting down the Christians who might be there. If Christians are getting tattoos that witness to others, or if they are doing it out of love for their Lord -- and for the glory of God -- who are you to condemn that?

You have failed to demonstrate the sinfulness of tattoos, specifically Christian tattoos. Clinging to Old Testament law would also mean that ear piercings would also be forbidden -- even if they were meant for Jesus Fish ear-rings.

How far are you willing to go? The New Testament is silent on a lot of things mentioned in the Old Testament; does that mean we should adhere to all things covered in the Old Testament not mentioned in the new? Shall we stone disobedient children? Of course not. You have to be sensible and draw the line somewhere. The problem is, when the Bible is silent on an issue -- who draws the line? That all boils down to whatever convictions you may have as an individual.

Cultural customs do have a role here. In Paul's day it was sinful for women to have short hair or hair which was uncovered, or for women to speak (not teach but actually ask questions to their husbands) in church. Today, such are commonly seen and culturally acceptable. That's because it was a matter of cultural conscious, just as the art of tattooing is.

You are probably the only Christian I've ever heard of who has labeled tattoos, specifically Christian tattoos, as sinful -- not only that but has made such a bold claim with hardly any Biblical evidence at all to back up such a claim.

You keep saying Christians can repent of this sin, but in what way shape or form is it a sin? Have you accounted for the number of Christian tattoos that have perhaps lead others to an interest in Christianity and ultimately a belief in Christ? What about the Christians who get tattoos to remind them of God's love for them and theirs for God? Does that mean anything or is it just completely and utterly sinful anyway you slice it?

I argue that this issue is one of cultural concern and has nothing to do with the state of one's relationship with God. People who tend to condemn cosmetics, clothes, hairstyle, tattoos, etc. are usually members of older generations who are far too concerned with the appearance of men than with their souls or person-hood.

If Jesus had decided to come in this century instead of 2000 years ago, and if he had walked into church today, some would probably say "get that long-haired, tattooed, smelly hippy out of here!"

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