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Do Christians willfully sin? If so why?

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Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: McCulloch 
Posted: 05/14/2007 10:48 PM 
 
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong? If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?

I am not talking about sins of ignorance. But sins committed by believers with the full knowledge that they are sins.

Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven, but Jesus said, "You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." and "From now on sin no more.", and "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

Question for debate:
Do Christians willfully sin?
If so, why?

Do they lack belief when they sin? Do they lack free-will when they sin? Are they in rebellion against God? Or is it that those who sin, really are not true Christians?


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: Anonymous 
Posted: 05/14/2007 11:23 PM 
 








McCulloch wrote:
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong?

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.









Quote:
If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?

I think that is a question many Christians ask themselves. But in the OT, the Israelites wandered through the desert with God directing them with a flame and even providing them manna to eat, and they still rebelled. Mankind is stubborn.









Quote:
I am not talking about sins of ignorance. But sins committed by believers with the full knowledge that they are sins.

I think there are very few sins of ignorance, most are done with full knowledge,









Quote:
Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven,

I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that expression. It's another "Christianism" I despise. The Christian life is more than "just forgiven."










Quote:
Question for debate:
Do Christians willfully sin?
If so, why?

I believe so. As I said, I believe most sin is willful. People just don't "fall into sin." It is an act of the will. Rebellion, if you will.









Quote:
Do they lack belief when they sin?

No, we all sin. If we didn't, there would be no need for a sacrfice.









Quote:
Do they lack free-will when they sin?

No, in fact they are excercising it. If man didn't have free will, he would likely not sin at all.









Quote:
Are they in rebellion against God? Or is it that those who sin, really are not true Christians?

Christians do sin. Everyone sins. Are they in rebellion against God? The act of sin is a rebellion, so technically, I believe yes. Sin is a determination of the self-will.


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: McCulloch 
Posted: 05/15/2007 07:53 AM 
 








McCulloch wrote:
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong?









twobitsmedia wrote:
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

I am not sure what this means. Is it that you cannot help it because you have a physical body not a spiritual one? Are you saying it is like I would like to be able to run a 4 minute mile, but my body just won't let me?









Quote:
If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?









twobitsmedia wrote:
I think that is a question many Christians ask themselves. But in the OT, the Israelites wandered through the desert with God directing them with a flame and even providing them manna to eat, and they still rebelled. Mankind is stubborn.

This is the question. If you believed that God was watching, would you choose to sin. I would not. Therefore, if you choose to sin, you don't believe that God is watching.









Quote:
Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven,









twobitsmedia wrote:
I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that expression. It's another "Christianism" I despise. The Christian life is more than "just forgiven."

I suppose. But the idea of this saying is that we should not expect that Christians behave in a sin free way. The difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that the former do not sin but that they have God's forgiveness when they do.









Quote:
Question for debate:
Do Christians willfully sin?
If so, why?









twobitsmedia wrote:
I believe so. As I said, I believe most sin is willful. People just don't "fall into sin." It is an act of the will. Rebellion, if you will.











Quote:
Do they lack belief when they sin?









twobitsmedia wrote:
No, we all sin. If we didn't, there would be no need for a sacrifice.

I understand the Christian doctrine that all have sinned therefore Jesus had to be a perfect sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sin. But why after you have been forgiven, after you accept God's love, do you find it necessary to continue to choose sin?









Quote:
Do they lack free-will when they sin?









twobitsmedia wrote:
No, in fact they are exercising it. If man didn't have free will, he would likely not sin at all.

With the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, why would it not be possible for a believer to choose not to sin?


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: Vanguard 
Posted: 05/15/2007 07:59 PM 
 








McCulloch wrote:
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong? If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?

I am not talking about sins of ignorance. But sins committed by believers with the full knowledge that they are sins.

Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven, but Jesus said, "You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." and "From now on sin no more.", and "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

Question for debate:
Do Christians willfully sin?
If so, why?

Do they lack belief when they sin? Do they lack free-will when they sin? Are they in rebellion against God? Or is it that those who sin, really are not true Christians?



McCulloch - Do you ever act or not act contrary to what your conscience tells you? If so, why? If not, what's your secret?! Think


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: Anonymous 
Posted: 05/15/2007 10:06 PM 
 








McCulloch wrote:








McCulloch wrote:
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong?









twobitsmedia wrote:
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

I am not sure what this means. Is it that you cannot help it because you have a physical body not a spiritual one? Are you saying it is like I would like to be able to run a 4 minute mile, but my body just won't let me?









Quote:
If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?

thats why we needed a Savior. cause we are sinners. its our nature. like the snake cant help but bite, we sin. we have a sin nature.











twobitsmedia wrote:
I think that is a question many Christians ask themselves. But in the OT, the Israelites wandered through the desert with God directing them with a flame and even providing them manna to eat, and they still rebelled. Mankind is stubborn.

This is the question. If you believed that God was watching, would you choose to sin. I would not. Therefore, if you choose to sin, you don't believe that God is watching.

duh. of course He is watching. He sees all.....and still loves us.









Quote:
Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven,









twobitsmedia wrote:
I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that expression. It's another "Christianism" I despise. The Christian life is more than "just forgiven."

I suppose. But the idea of this saying is that we should not expect that Christians behave in a sin free way. The difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that the former do not sin but that they have God's forgiveness when they do.









Quote:
Question for debate:
Do Christians willfully sin?
If so, why?









twobitsmedia wrote:
I believe so. As I said, I believe most sin is willful. People just don't "fall into sin." It is an act of the will. Rebellion, if you will.











Quote:
Do they lack belief when they sin?









twobitsmedia wrote:
No, we all sin. If we didn't, there would be no need for a sacrifice.

I understand the Christian doctrine that all have sinned therefore Jesus had to be a perfect sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sin. But why after you have been forgiven, after you accept God's love, do you find it necessary to continue to choose sin?









Quote:
Do they lack free-will when they sin?









twobitsmedia wrote:
No, in fact they are exercising it. If man didn't have free will, he would likely not sin at all.

With the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, why would it not be possible for a believer to choose not to sin?



it is possible for us to choose not to sin. but we are still humans, in the flesh, we still rebel against God......we are human. and forgiven....


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: McCulloch 
Posted: 05/15/2007 10:41 PM 
 








Vanguard wrote:
McCulloch - Do you ever act or not act contrary to what your conscience tells you? If so, why? If not, what's your secret?! Think



You are sidestepping the question. I sometimes do what I know that I shouldn't. But I don't believe that my every act and thought is being viewed by an omniscient God who will judge the living and the dead who sacrificed his own son for my transgressions, either.

There has been some interesting research done lately on the evolutionary reasons for humans to go against our conscience. But I am more interested in the Christian position on this issue.

Are you saying that Christians, like all humans, go against their own conscience, even with the power of prayer, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the grace and forgiveness of the almighty father and the guidance of the very Word of God? Why would they?










katiej49 wrote:
it is possible for us to choose not to sin. but we are still humans, in the flesh, we still rebel against God......we are human. and forgiven....

It is possible to choose not to sin. The way I read it, it is not only possible but it has been commanded. Sure, if you sin, you will be forgiven, but you don't have to sin, do you?


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: Anonymous 
Posted: 05/15/2007 10:59 PM 
 








McCulloch wrote:








McCulloch wrote:
If you believe that God is all powerful, that God loves you and that God knows your every act and every thought, how can you ever do what you know is wrong?









twobitsmedia wrote:
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

I am not sure what this means. Is it that you cannot help it because you have a physical body not a spiritual one? Are you saying it is like I would like to be able to run a 4 minute mile, but my body just won't let me?

I suppose in a way, except I would replace the word body with "self will."









Quote:
If God has made the sacrifice of His Son for your sins, how can you even entertain the idea of willfully sinning?









twobitsmedia wrote:
I think that is a question many Christians ask themselves. But in the OT, the Israelites wandered through the desert with God directing them with a flame and even providing them manna to eat, and they still rebelled. Mankind is stubborn. This is the question. If you believed that God was watching, would you choose to sin. I would not. Therefore, if you choose to sin, you don't believe that God is watching.

People who are aware of sin know God is watching. We seem to think God will wink at it, or overlook it, or he will understand. And I think He does understand, but He does not wink at it. Or it's a weak moment where the "desire" is strong and we do not wish to fight the desire.









Quote:
Christians are fond of saying that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven,









twobitsmedia wrote:
I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that expression. It's another "Christianism" I despise. The Christian life is more than "just forgiven." quote]I suppose. But the idea of this saying is that we should not expect that Christians behave in a sin free way.

It also suggests license to sin.









Quote:
The difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that the former do not sin but that they have God's forgiveness when they do.

Everyone sins. Some people just don't believe it to be sin. God forgiveness is available to all.










Quote:
I understand the Christian doctrine that all have sinned therefore Jesus had to be a perfect sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sin. But why after you have been forgiven, after you accept God's love, do you find it necessary to continue to choose sin?

it is not a "necessary" choice.










Quote:
With the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, why would it not be possible for a believer to choose not to sin?

It is possible.


Re: Do Christians willfully sin? If so why? 
Author: Vanguard 
Posted: 05/16/2007 12:42 AM 
 








McCulloch wrote:








Vanguard wrote:
McCulloch - Do you ever act or not act contrary to what your conscience tells you? If so, why? If not, what's your secret?! Think


You are sidestepping the question. I sometimes do what I know that I shouldn't. But I don't believe that my every act and thought is being viewed by an omniscient God who will judge the living and the dead who sacrificed his own son for my transgressions, either.


Because I may attribute that conscience to a supernatural origin and you apparently don't is merely a formality when compared against the actual acquiescence to the demands of that same conscience. The difference is that I have a very interesting story behind these promptings with universal application.










Quote:
There has been some interesting research done lately on the evolutionary reasons for humans to go against our conscience. But I am more interested in the Christian position on this issue.


The point is that both you and I will live our lives perpetually reminded of actions we ought to take. The difference is that I attribute this to Christ's promptings for me to live toward my ever-changing capacity to be Christ-like though at times I won't and you must wait for the most recent brain-chemistry studies in Scientific American to understand why you do the same. d'oh!










Quote:
Are you saying that Christians, like all humans, go against their own conscience, even with the power of prayer, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the grace and forgiveness of the almighty father and the guidance of the very Word of God? Why would they?


The answer is "yes" to all of the above. Here's the kicker - you experience the same thing. Your appeals in the moment to rise to the standard that your conscience demands - when so much of you would rather do otherwise - is an appeal to the Almighty to help see you through your adversity. You label this experience differently - but again, this is simply a formality when compared against your effort to honor the promptings.

McCulloch - you strike me as an individual, based on your writings alone, with considerable integrity. I simply chose to believe there is an "unseen hand" in helping you cultivate this gift for the purpose of accomplishing even more. Angel


I wish I were wrong. 
Author: melikio 
Posted: 05/16/2007 04:48 AM 
 








Quote:
Do Christians willfully sin?


Certainly, they do.









Quote:
If so, why?


Christians are STILL HUMAN BEINGS.

The mistake that has tripped-up many Christians, is that they aren't going to be PERFECT in this life...not ever.

The ONLY substitute for being in heaven and never sinning; is doing your BEST as an imperfect HUMAN, and accepting God's grace for the amazing and miraculous thing (gift) that it is.

I've found that real repentance comes a lot more readily from people, when they realize or accept that God is not some COSMIC DICTATOR impatiently waiting for His ounce of flesh. Unfortuantely, people paint unique pictures of God using the Bible and what they've been taught.

Different is OK, but those who carry around an image of an angry or uncompassionate God, are just plain miserable people overall. All too often, they neither know how to love, nor be loved. Sad And even more sad, is that they PROJECT the same view onto other people. How can one forgive, if they never feel as if they've been forgiven? Sad

Go to any Christian forum, and see if I have overstated the simple observations I just shared above. (I wish I were wrong.)

-Mel-


Re: I wish I were wrong. 
Author: Vanguard 
Posted: 05/16/2007 06:47 AM 
 
melikio -









Quote:
The ONLY substitute for being in heaven and never sinning; is doing your BEST as an imperfect HUMAN, and accepting God's grace for the amazing and miraculous thing (gift) that it is.


I absolutely agree with you. Though not anything new, your characterization of both mankind's & deity's part in the plan is spot on. Cool










Quote:
I've found that real repentance comes a lot more readily from people, when they realize or accept that God is not some COSMIC DICTATOR impatiently waiting for His ounce of flesh. Unfortuantely, people paint unique pictures of God using the Bible and what they've been taught.


Yet this is the language of the scriptures (i.e., God is angry, awaiting retribution, and the like). I don't like the paradym. My Christian compatriots will tell me that if I can't take the heat to get out of the kitchen. I reject such focus and chose rather to think more on His love and acceptance. This is not "Chrisitanity-made-lite" thinking. I recognize that I must "stretch for my capacity" throughout this life - that there is an expectation of me as it were.










Quote:
Different is OK, but those who carry around an image of an angry or uncompassionate God, are just plain miserable people overall. All too often, they neither know how to love, nor be loved. Sad And even more sad, is that they PROJECT the same view onto other people. How can one forgive, if they never feel as if they've been forgiven? Sad


Again, you and I are in agreement. One's existential misery is to be shared and compared against others'. This enables many from colapsing from within. You know, misery loves company and all that.

In response to the OP, McColloch, fairly enough, calls into question the whole purpose of the plan. IMO God has deliberately allowed us to make our own choices even with so much potential influence from above. In my mind, this does not call into question his omnipotence. It only reinforces the belief that he has set aside this life for the purpose of experiencing something very important (i.e., the struggle with following the dictates of our own consciences). In other words, are we walking/talking paradoxes? - You betcha'!

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