Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #40]

Please how is Israel occupying what is not a country. Israel took over land because of wars started by Palestine. Should all countries that gained land because of wars return the land to the original owner? Should the USA return all the land gained because of war? ie return it to England?

Second you do know that there never was a county called Palestine. The closest is Jordon and maybe force them to be Palestine.

Please supply all the facts you have that there was/is a country called Palestine. Please do not bring up an area that was call Palestine, that was not a country.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #40]

Please how is Israel occupying what is not a country. Israel took over land because of wars started by Palestine. Should all countries that gained land because of wars return the land to the original owner? Should the USA return all the land gained because of war? ie return it to England?

Second you do know that there never was a county called Palestine. The closest is Jordon and maybe force them to be Palestine.

Despite sometimes lurching into accuracy, this post shows naivete re: use of the word "State." As you mentioned "where" does one choose a starting point, a date? The key point is the displacement of people by force. According to the Bible, the first incursion in to what became Palestine (Canaan or 'the Levant') was when the Israelites invaded the territory 3500 or so years ago, plundering, stealing, killing and enslaving. That tribal barbarism should be considered in light of Hamas' terrorism today. The area has always been a crossroads with various warring tribes composed of virtually genetically identical people today called 'Arabs' and 'Jews.' The hatred is mutual and as old as history. Each act of violence, from either side, ensures only one thing, the perpetuation of hate.

From Wikipedia,

n the 4th century, as the Roman Empire christened, Palestine became a center of Christianity, attracting pilgrims, monks and scholars. Following the Muslim conquest of the Levant in 636–641, several Muslim ruling dynasties succeeded each other as they wrestled control of Palestine: the Rashiduns; the Umayyads, who built the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem; the Abbasids; the semi-independent Tulunids and the Ikhshidids; the Fatimids; and the Seljuks. In 1099, the Crusaders established the Kingdom of Jerusalem in Palestine, which the Ayyubid Sultanate reconquered in 1187. Following the invasion of the Mongol Empire, the Egyptian Mamluks reunified Palestine under its control before the Ottoman Empire conquered the region in 1516 and ruled it as Ottoman Syria largely undisrupted through to the 20th century.

In less than 100 years, "Palestine" [in blue] has shrunk dramatically...

1918

2015


https://visualizingpalestine.org/visual ... -palestine

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #39

I'll reiterate your point just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Your view is that Israel attacking Hamas is wrong because they are using occupied land to do so.

I'll reiterate your point to make sure I'm understanding your severely warped misinterpretation of my point. You're saying that because I point out the unlawful nature of Israel's occupation, I must be saying that it's wrong for Israel to fight terrorism. I did not----at any time----say that it was wrong for Israel to fight Hamas, and I DEFY you to show me where I did.

You made a blanket statement that no one side is right.

As long as Israel continues its occupation in violation of international law and Hamas continues its acts of terrorism, there is no time in this conflict when only one side is wrong.

In other words, both sides are always wrong?!

My point in bringing up Israel fighting terrorists, and defending against the killing of babies, was to give a time when they would be in the right. It is only now that you seem to agree after I pointed out the implications of your statement. You didn't say the exact words that Israel was wrong to fight against Hamas, but those are the implications of your view.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #40]

Please how is Israel occupying what is not a country. Israel took over land because of wars started by Palestine. Should all countries that gained land because of wars return the land to the original owner? Should the USA return all the land gained because of war? ie return it to England?

With me, whether or not Israel is an occupier should no longer be an issue. The reason I say that is because removing them from the land is no longer a viable option since they are already established there and they number in the millions. If we tell them to leave the land, where are they going to go?

I also think you're right to question even the legitimacy of claims of "occupation" because the Jews also have a stake in the land given their history of owning it before. At this point, what I take issue with is when Israel takes a disproportionate amount of the land for themselves. That needs to be resolved.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #43

My point in bringing up Israel fighting terrorists, and defending against the killing of babies, was to give a time when they would be in the right.

Fighting terrorists is always right, but fighting Hamas isn't enough to put Israel entirely in the right. The occupation is still wrong.

"At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/isr ... ion-abuses


"The civilian casualties have continued to rise as Israel strikes large residential areas, schools and hospitals in Gaza, in what it says are military target strikes."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/middleea ... index.html

How does the Israeli military know that Hamas targets are present in every school, hospital and private home it obliterates? There has to be a better way to stop the killing of babies than by killing different babies.

It is only now that you seem to agree after I pointed out the implications of your statement. You didn't say the exact words that Israel was wrong to fight against Hamas, but those are the implications of your view.

What you choose to read into my view means nothing.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #44

With me, whether or not Israel is an occupier should no longer be an issue. The reason I say that is because removing them from the land is no longer a viable option since they are already established there and they number in the millions. If we tell them to leave the land, where are they going to go?

Where are Israelis in the Palestinian territories to go? How about.....to Israel?

[Donray]

Can the people defending the terrorist actions of the Palestine people please tell me what you think should be the response if Canada government fired a rocket attack on New York city and killed 3000 people?

Should Iseral have the right to defend its people?

[AgnosticBoy]

"The civilian casualties have continued to rise as Israel strikes large residential areas, schools and hospitals in Gaza, in what it says are military target strikes."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/middleea ... index.html

How does the Israeli military know that Hamas targets are present in every school, hospital and private home it obliterates? There has to be a better way to stop the killing of babies than by killing different babies.

Unfortunately, a heavily polarizing environment/issue requires showing more balance. Otherwise, you might end up having to explain yourself later on when questioned. You only brought up one side of the issue. To show more balance, I would also take into account that Hamas tends to use human shields and that needs to stop. Also, Israel needs to better tailor their military response to target Hamas without also causing a needless burden/harm to Palestinian civilians.

[Purple Knight]

My point in bringing up Israel fighting terrorists, and defending against the killing of babies, was to give a time when they would be in the right.

Fighting terrorists is always right, but fighting Hamas isn't enough to put Israel entirely in the right. The occupation is still wrong.

I guess the question would be how much terrorism is justified (or even understandable) to protect your right to exist, or if it's possible that it's, at some point, a moral obligation to be a gracious loser on the genetic identity scale and submit to genocide because the invaders are stronger and it would require horrific acts to defend your People.

I prefer a morality where everyone's right to exist is so sacred that it's right to do anything to defend it.

I don't see anything fair about invading and then asking, "But, where would I go?" after the fact. The invaders should turn control of Palestine, over to Palestinians. If invaders who are left there are oppressed, that is regrettable, but it would simply be the result of a People having the right to self-determination.

I have a right to my things. Don't put Lilliputians in every sandwich I buy. At some point I'm just going to eat my own bloody sandwich because I have the right to. It's my sandwich. Similarly, it's their land. I probably should try to pick around the Lilliputians. It'd be the nice thing to do. But I argue that it is not a moral obligation.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Donray in post #47

Can the people defending the terrorist actions of the Palestine people please tell me what you think should be the response if Canada government fired a rocket attack on New York city and killed 3000 people?

Can the people presumptuously accusing those who criticize the occupation of defending the terrorist actions of Hamas [ not the Palestinian people] please tell me how the US could justify spending decades establishing illegal settlements in Canada, forcing Canadians out of their homes and demolishing them, setting up checkpoints on every Canadian road to restrict all movement of Canadians across their own country, taking complete control of Canada's supplies of food, water, electricity and fuel, and then responding to an aggressive act from Canada by reducing Canadian homes, schools and hospitals to rubble, cutting off the aforementioned resources from Canadian civilians, dousing inhabited areas in Canada with white phosphorus and preventing medical aid from getting to Canadians who survived?