How pointless is debate?

[Darias]

Over the course of the past few months, I have noticed several of my Christian brethren say things like this:

. . . there's no point in debating theology with unbelievers.

[...]

[If] you found the Bible to be true and accurate, then we would have a foundation on which to begin. If you do not, then any theological debate we might have would be a fruitless dialogue that would result in absolutely nothing in the end but two people's opinion who aren't any closer to agreeing with each other then when they first began.

[...]

As for the offer to debate, I'll pass. We cannot debate theology if you do not consider the Bible to be true. . . . I don't see the point.
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• ( "How do we know a sinner when we see one?" Page 29, Post 282 )

. . . I have about 15 hours into a reply to your post above, but I have decided to scrap it. I hate doing this, because I feel that in it I very strongly and adequately demonstrated that my position is Biblically consistent. However, I have said before that I do not debate theology with people who do not believe the Bible. . . .

[...]

I see no point in giving you any more of my time, at least regarding Biblical matters. . . . debating anything Biblical with you is certainly pointless.
_____

• ( "Once saved, always saved?" Page 20, Post 199 )

I refuse to debate the Bible and theology with unsaved people. It's pointless.
_____

• ( "Prayer is a waste." Page 3, Post 28 )

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This attitude concerns me. Two of these posts were addressed to me, a believer -- and while I take no offense at the responses in general, it does make me wonder.

If Christians are unwilling to debate other Christians on important matters of belief, how do they expect to convince non-believers to believe in their world-view?

And second, if Christians are unwilling to discuss the Bible, doctrine, or theology with non-believers, how do they expect anyone to join the faith? Are Christians just hoping people will accept Christ for fear of hell, or out of ignorance of the teachings of the faith?

Third, is this seemingly collective pessimism towards debate the result of the inability to actually support a strong argument, or is it the result of an unwillingness to exchange ideas and admit the possibility of being wrong? Or is it cased by something else?

I'd really like to know. If no one is willing to give an answer, than may I ask, "Why are you here?" After all, this is a forum called Debating Christianity and Religion.

[otseng]

Tell me where it says I cannot judge if someone is saved or not?

I'm referring to the rules of the forum:

1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Since you do not seem to be able to understand this, I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup. Further comments on posters will result in more drastic action.

[fewwillfindit]

I hope I was able to clarify: I was referring here (HH) to what some Christians do there (C&A), which is what I thought and think the OP was about. I have no quarrel with what you say here, circular or not, and wouldn't make the claim of circularity if we were only referring to here. It's no secret that most biblicists would think that Darias and I are not Christians, and for my part I prefer the term Christianist for y'all. But this is a place where we put that aside and recognize each other's legitimacy, while disagreeing. Anyhoo, in general if peeps wanna debate in C&A, I'd 1. lay off the circularity and 2. call evidentiary reductionsists on their BS. Laslty, the HH is a sanctuary for Christians, not just for biblicists, but for all Christians.

Yep. Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure you can understand why I assumed you were talking about using circularity here, since your post was directly on the heels of mine, which used the term, "God-breathed," in reference to debate among Christians. However, I fully agree that using circular logic in C&A is ridiculous. To tell a non-Theist, who is inquiring about proof of God, that God exists because His book says so, is crazy. (But I've seen it)

Man. That some would think, say, or imply otherwise I find flabbergasting. Yet predictable.

Lol. Touché!

[Goose]

Tell me where it says I cannot judge if someone is saved or not?

I'm referring to the rules of the forum:

1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Since you do not seem to be able to understand this, I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup.

Otseng, aren't you violating the very rule you quote by attacking AmazingJesusIs' ability to understand when you imply he is not able to understand a basic rule? Isn't that a personal attack? Maybe you should remove yourself from the Brother's Keeper usergroup while you're at it.

[Slopeshoulder]

I hope I was able to clarify: I was referring here (HH) to what some Christians do there (C&A), which is what I thought and think the OP was about. I have no quarrel with what you say here, circular or not, and wouldn't make the claim of circularity if we were only referring to here. It's no secret that most biblicists would think that Darias and I are not Christians, and for my part I prefer the term Christianist for y'all. But this is a place where we put that aside and recognize each other's legitimacy, while disagreeing. Anyhoo, in general if peeps wanna debate in C&A, I'd 1. lay off the circularity and 2. call evidentiary reductionsists on their BS. Laslty, the HH is a sanctuary for Christians, not just for biblicists, but for all Christians.

Yep. Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure you can understand why I assumed you were talking about using circularity here, since your post was directly on the heels of mine, which used the term, "God-breathed," in reference to debate among Christians. However, I fully agree that using circular logic in C&A is ridiculous. To tell a non-Theist, who is inquiring about proof of God, that God exists because His book says so, is crazy. (But I've seen it)

Cool. Thanks.
Oh yes, i see it all the time, in one form or another. But the nontheists pull the same stunt by insisting on proof in a narrow and priveleged rationalist/empiricist/positivist framework for everything. The discussion re: worldview, presuppositions, faith, etc are much more fruitful.

[otseng]

Tell me where it says I cannot judge if someone is saved or not?

I'm referring to the rules of the forum:

1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Since you do not seem to be able to understand this, I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup.

Otseng, aren't you violating the very rule you quote by attacking AmazingJesusIs' ability to understand when you imply he is not able to understand a basic rule? Isn't that a personal attack? Maybe you should remove yourself from the Brother's Keeper usergroup while you're at it.

Nope. It is the rules that we are all under. And that is the basis on which we all have agreed to be held to on this forum.

[Goose]

Tell me where it says I cannot judge if someone is saved or not?

I'm referring to the rules of the forum:

1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed. Comments about another poster that are negative, condescending, frivolous or indicate in any way a lack of respect are not allowed.

Since you do not seem to be able to understand this, I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup.

Otseng, aren't you violating the very rule you quote by attacking AmazingJesusIs' ability to understand when you imply he is not able to understand a basic rule? Isn't that a personal attack? Maybe you should remove yourself from the Brother's Keeper usergroup while you're at it.

Nope. It is the rules that we are all under. And that is the basis on which we all have agreed to be held to on this forum.

I'm not speaking of the forum rules. I'm speaking of the requirements to be a Brother's Keeper which states:

Group description: This usergroup is for Christians to hold each other accountable to following the rules of the forum and to try to be blameless from attacking any other forum member.

You've attacked AmazingJesusIs ability to understand a basic rule. This is a personal attack. Now, I'm not a member of the BK usergroup so I shouldn't be the one calling you out here. But what is the point of being in the group if the leader attacks other Christians and then basically shrugs it off when called out on it? In doing so you justify my lack of willingness to be a part of that group.

[otseng]

You've attacked AmazingJesusIs ability to understand a basic rule. This is a personal attack. Now, I'm not a member of the BK usergroup so I shouldn't be the one calling you out here. But what is the point of being in the group if the leader attacks other Christians and then basically shrugs it off when called out on it? In doing so you justify my lack of willingness to be a part of that group.

Pointing out a rule violation is not a personal attack. Otherwise all the moderators would be guilty of this and there would be no way to enforce the rules.

Yes, I made a judgment that he does not seem to be able to understand this rule because I had already given a warning, yet he responded by choosing not to heed the warning.

Also, let me add that the usergroup is to "hold each other accountable to following the rules of the forum". Pointing out what are the rules and where it has been violated is the purpose of the group.

[Goose]

You've attacked AmazingJesusIs ability to understand a basic rule. This is a personal attack. Now, I'm not a member of the BK usergroup so I shouldn't be the one calling you out here. But what is the point of being in the group if the leader attacks other Christians and then basically shrugs it off when called out on it? In doing so you justify my lack of willingness to be a part of that group.

Pointing out a rule violation is not a personal attack.

Of course not. But you did not merely point out a rule violation. You did not write to AmazingJesusIs for instance, you seem to be continually violating rule 1[/b], so I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup until you stop.

No, what you wrote was:

Since you do not seem to be able to understand this [rule], I've removed you from the Brother's Keeper usergroup.

You clearly attacked another member’s ability to understand and comprehend something – in this case a rule. Moreover, a rule that is relatively elementary and plainly worded. Probably intentionally worded this way so that even a dull person can understand it. Yet, you state that AmazingJesusIs does not seem able to understand this plain rule. Thus, you imply that AmazingJesusIs seems less than dull. I’ll grant this is a subtle attack. But it is nonetheless a personal attack - period.

Otherwise all the moderators would be guilty of this and there would be no way to enforce the rules.

But there is a problem when the moderators violate the very rules they seek to uphold in the process of upholding those rules don’t you think? Maybe the rules are too strict and unrealistic for a debate environment if even the creator of those rules can’t fully live up to them at all times.

Yes, I made a judgment that he does not seem to be able to understand this rule because I had already given a warning, yet he responded by choosing not to heed the warning.

Setting aside the irony of the fact that you were judging someone when you had just called them out on judging others, you had warned AmazingJesusIs not to judge regarding determining who is an is not a true Christian. There did not appear to be a violation of forum rule number 1 by AmazingJesusIs in the post 17 were you warned him. At least nothing worse than you implying AmazingJesusIs does not appear to have the mental capacity to understand a simple rule. Then AmazingJesusIs corrected you with scripture on your incorrect command to us, “Do not judge on who you think is a "true" Christian or not.� Rather than addressing AmazingJesusIs argument and the scripture he quoted there you attacked him and removed him from the Brother’s Keeper group. Add to this you also threatened him with “more drastic action� if he does not comply.

Also, let me add that the usergroup is to "hold each other accountable to following the rules of the forum".

Then it is a needless group as we are already part of a similar group by being part of the forum at large where the moderating team keeps us accountable and members can report violations. So either there is no real point to the BK group or you have a vision for this group that goes beyond the basic forum rule requirement (such as holding Christians to a higher standard perhaps). Which is it?

Pointing out what are the rules and where it has been violated is the purpose of the group.

Well I’m not in the group because I don’t believe I can hold to the standard anyway as I’m no saint. But now I have another reason to avoid the group of BK. I called you out on your attack of AmazingJesusIs to see how you, as the moderator of the group, would respond - a test so to speak. And rather than acknowledge the attack and simply apologize you’ve spent the last two posts trying to justify it. There is an element of hypocrisy present when one judges another but then refuses to be held to the same standard by which they judge.

I’ve also found some of your comments in this thread, and elsewhere, to be somewhat sweeping and rather cynical of Christians in general. Such as:

Part of the problem is that most Christians are unequipped to effectively engage in a meaningful discussion on matters of faith with non-Christians. Another problem is that most Christians power of intellectual and rational persuasion is lacking.

Who are you speaking of here? Are you implying that you are equipped and that your power of intellect and rational persuasion is up to the task of persuading? If so, please tell me what this equipment is and how many on this forum you have persuaded? If not, perhaps it best not to make these types of comments.

[otseng]

Thus, you imply that AmazingJesusIs seems less than dull. I’ll grant this is a subtle attack. But it is nonetheless a personal attack - period.

I'm not stating, or even implying, that AmazingJesusIs is less than dull. If a violation of a rule means someone is less than dull, then all of us would classify as less than dull.

But, if AmazingJesusIs interprets my wording as meaning this, I apologize. My intent is not to say that anyone is less than dull, but that one needs to understand and follow the rules.

Add to this you also threatened him with “more drastic action� if he does not comply.

Let me ask you this, do you think that him stating that Darias is not a true Christian would be a violation of the forum rules or not?

So either there is no real point to the BK group or you have a vision for this group that goes beyond the basic forum rule requirement (such as holding Christians to a higher standard perhaps). Which is it?

The purpose of the group is to give members explicit permission to speak to one another on following the rules. Though all members of the forum are of course expected to follow the rules, one can have a hesitancy on calling another member when they do break a rule.

I’ve also found some of your comments in this thread, and elsewhere, to be somewhat sweeping and rather cynical of Christians in general. Such as:

Part of the problem is that most Christians are unequipped to effectively engage in a meaningful discussion on matters of faith with non-Christians. Another problem is that most Christians power of intellectual and rational persuasion is lacking.

Who are you speaking of here?

If you're curious, no, you're not one of them. As for calling out specific names, I am not going to do that.

Are you implying that you are equipped and that your power of intellect and rational persuasion is up to the task of persuading?

You sure do read a lot into my posts. No, I didn't state that to indirectly elevate myself to some noble position. And I'll admit that my powers of persuasion is lacking also. That is one reason that I'm currently going to grad school.

If so, please tell me what this equipment is and how many on this forum you have persuaded?

Honestly, I have no idea.

If not, perhaps it best not to make these types of comments.

I'll qualify it by saying that this observation is my opinion only.

[Goose]

But, if AmazingJesusIs interprets my wording as meaning this, I apologize. My intent is not to say that anyone is less than dull, but that one needs to understand and follow the rules.

Fair enough. I don't know if AmazingJesusIs interpreted it this way. But I did, so thanks for apologizing.

Let me ask you this, do you think that him stating that Darias is not a true Christian would be a violation of the forum rules or not?

No because AmazingJesusIs made a judgment about Darius based upon an inference from scripture (Matthew 7:16-20). You did something similar and you created the rule. You made a judgement about AmazingJesusIs drawn from an inference from not abiding by the rules. You wrote:

Yes, I made a judgment that he does not seem to be able to understand this rule because I had already given a warning, yet he responded by choosing not to heed the warning.

If AmazingJesusIs violated rule [1] by doing this then it would appear you did as well. The inferences themselves may be faulty, but that would be a separate issue.

So I see two options if you are to be consistent. Either...

• 1. Restore AmazingJesusIs to the BK group or;
  2. Remove yourself as well.

The purpose of the group is to give members explicit permission to speak to one another on following the rules.

But I already have express permission to do this by virtue of the existence of a reporting process I can follow. I therefore “speak to one another on following the rules� via a moderator.

Though all members of the forum are of course expected to follow the rules, one can have a hesitancy on calling another member when they do break a rule.

Maybe. But I am not a member of the group BK and I called you out and you are even the owner of this forum! So again, I don’t see the point of the BK group. It seems redundant to me. It seems more like an excuse to appear better than others by agreeing to be a member of it. But that is only my perception.

You sure do read a lot into my posts.

Not really. Actually, I was asking a question to clarify a potential misconception. Which you clarified. Thank you.