Free Speech and Inflammatory Rhetoric

[WinePusher]

With the recent tragedy in Tuscon Arizona, many on the left have been blaming this on conservatives and their supposed "inflammatory rhetoric." Conservative leaders such as Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Michele Bachmann, Sharon Angle and others have been their primary targets. They have focused particular attention on Palins bullet map and the call to use "second amendment remedies" by Sharon Angle.

But let's look a little closer at this. The DNC used a bullet map similar to Palin, people on the left like Ed Schultz and Mike Malloy have called for the death of some presidents and conservative leaders, a documentary was made about killing Bush by a leftist, and Obama himself has made inflammatory remarks with violent connotations. The left also was so concerned about jumping to conclusions about Fort Hood, but jumps to conclusions about the political affiliations of this psychopath in the absense of evidence.

1) Are second amendment remedies to problems ever justified? Remember that the point of the 2nd amendment was to combat a tyrannical government.

2) Are conservatives to blame for this?

3) Are liberals being hypocrties by jumping to conclusions over this, and not jumping to conclusions over Fort Hood. Are they also being hypocrites for charging conservatives with violent and inflammatory rhetoric while leaving their own ranks uncondemned?

[Goat]

Grumpy also KNOWS that the challenge for you or Ae to come up with a single instance of Racheal Maddow telling a lie or even making an honest mistake that she did not later correct has not been met The two truly pitiful attempts seems to have shown you your error, you haven't addressed it again. So, no, all reporters do not lie despite their biases, they do not make things up to further their political interests, but the ones at Fox certainly do, it has been documented in this thread.

Allow me to assist Mr. Winepusher's ? Ms Maddow lies just as well as all of the paid news employee's. I don't fully trust any of them, and that is the reason I take all of them 'in aggregate' and attempt to extrapolate 'average' claims etc, then form my own opinions. Additionally, I attempt to source via nontraditional methods news about events etc that are very important to me. I use shortwave and satt. radio for Islamic and other middle east news/issues for example.

Lastly I will comment about a few of Maddows mis-truths. The proof needed to prove Grumpys claims inaccurate were as close as the net and a search engine. I retained and pasted the Google descriptive paragraph to aid the potential reader in deciding if he or she wants to link to the site;

Rachel Maddow lies: Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the ...
Jul 26, 2010 ... Fox reports that Shirley Sherrod has already resigned, yet Rachel Maddow uses them as evidence that she resigned because of Fox News.

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/rachel-mad ... ey-sherrod

rs

And a web site that is titled 'I hate the media' is a valid site for unbiased information? WOW. Amazing. Particularly when they keep on blathering about 'Liberal bias'..

Looking at the 'articles' it presents, it is nothing but a neocon hate site.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

You are aware that Thomas Jefferson owned many slaves, taking "...from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned" from every one. TJ was a man like any other, blind to the true facts of his existence if it caused cognitive dissonance with his philosophy

One of the very first acts of Congress concerned the providing health care for indigent sailors, levying a tax to do so(IE socialism). Even Jefferson would balk at having to pay for the defense of the nation by himself(socialism). Providing for the common good could not be any more plain(socialism). We are all socialist, that's why we call them societies. The very act of banding together to provide mutual support is socialism. Conservatives are trying to demonize one of the basic traits that separate individuals alone from individuals forming societies for mutual benefit, creating laws and building things like roads.

Christianity is also a socialist philosophy. Jesus flat said so in relation to health care. I find it interesting that a Christian could be against following the example of the Good Samaritan and still claim to be Christian. That parable leaves no wriggle room and supposedly came straight out of his mouth. Jesus was real upfront on this "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing. That's socialistic. "Do unto other...". Socialist.

And the conservatives completely either disregard or outright lie about the most successful and best countries to live in(as regards quality of life)are the most socialist ones. I love my country(I served 8 years), but that does not blind me to the fact that other countries do some things in a better way. But this is a subject for a whole thread of it's own. We should look without ideological blinders at what works for other countries and learn something that will make our own country their equal or better. For example Denmark has universal, single payer basic healthcare. But the insurance companies make a profit and those with more money can get anything they want. They also have an economy that has not been dragged down by employers not being able to offer healthcare and their per capita income is increasing, their unemployment low. They pay about 41% income taxes to live in a country more compliant with the teachings of Jesus. Not a bad thing.

Does this count?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/madd ... -invasion/

No, from your own cite...

"As bloggers raced to reveal Maddow's blunder, the MSNBC anchor quickly acknowledged the mistake on her Twitter feed.

"The bad news about a free and open Internet? Sometimes you get had by brilliant satirists. Christwire: 1 TRMS: 0," Maddow tweeted"

As I said before, everyone makes mistakes, it's whether you correct them that makes a difference.

Eric Robert Rudolf was persuaded that the preacher he heard on Sunday meant what he said, that abortionists are murderers.

They are murderers, but that doesn't mean we get to impose the sentence.

Eric evidently got a different message. Knowing(as I do) the very churches in question I really have little doubt that "vengance is mine" was not a part of those sermons(the Westboroughs of the world are not unique, just loud). When you convince someone that someone else is a murderer he may or may not feel justified in taking you at your word. This is directly analogous to the Wahabi sects talking people into suicide bombings. Most Muslims abhor this, but agree with the prejudices that are at it's heart. There are always those willing to go the next logical(if you accept the premises)step. Like Bill Ayers did with the war protest paradigm. Like Eric Rudolf did with the abortion is murder opinion. Not saying it's right, just saying it is.

How about the entire lamestream MSM?

What about it, found anyone else that lies daily?

Speaking of which...

RevSpecter

Ms Maddow lies just as well as all of the paid news employee's.

That is a lie.

Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the

http://www.webcitation.org/5rcDqPq7D

"1:40 hp.m. (approximately): Fox Nation accuses Sherrod of "discrimination caught on tape" before she resigned. Fox Nation linked to Breitbart's Big Government piece and posted the deceptively cropped clips of Sherrod's speech at the NAACP in a post titled, "Caught on Tape: Obama Official Discriminates Against White Farmer":"

"After news broke that Sherrod resigned, the post's headline was changed to read "Obama Official Resigns After Discrimination Caught on Tape":"

Fox has a habit of removing embarrassing materials from their public records, it is no longer possible to get video of that day...

"Fox News amplifies Breitbart's deceptively edited video. On July 19, FoxNews.com reported: "Days after the NAACP clashed with Tea Party members over allegations of racism, a video has surfaced showing an Agriculture Department official regaling an NAACP audience with a story about how she withheld help to a white farmer facing bankruptcy." The FoxNews.com article further reported that "[t]he video clip was first posted by BigGovernment.com" and that "FoxNews.com is seeking a response from both the NAACP and the USDA." The article is no longer available on FoxNews.com but was republished on another website:"

And the evidence says that she did, or are you going to argue that Fox News, Fox Nation and FoxNews.com are not "associated" a whole lot more than Obama and Ayers are.

Fox had much to do with it. And didn't Breibart produce another deceptively edited video?(Acorn) Why would any reputable news organization believe anything he ever has to say again? (hint, it has to do with ideology, some people are willing to lie and spread lies for theirs).

Grumpy

[RevSpecter]

Great posts East of Eden. You took the words right out of my mouth and said them more eloquently than I could. rs

[RevSpecter]

You are aware that Thomas Jefferson owned many slaves, taking "...from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned" from every one. TJ was a man like any other, blind to the true facts of his existence if it caused cognitive dissonance with his philosophy.

Are you saying slavery is something that has been abolished? You and I are slaves, slavery still exists its slave masters and doctrine is the only thing that has changed. As far as traditional slavery is concerned almost all countries have held slaves at sometime in their history. TJ did own slaves and when was not illegal to do so. He as many of a public figure was a study in contradictions, so, what is the problem?

One of the very first acts of Congress concerned the providing health care for indigent sailors, levying a tax to do so (IE socialism). Even Jefferson would balk at having to pay for the defense of the nation by himself (socialism). Providing for the common good could not be any more plain (socialism). We are all socialist, that's why we call them societies. The very act of banding together to provide mutual support is socialism. Conservatives are trying to demonize one of the basic traits that separate individuals alone from individuals forming societies for mutual benefit, creating laws and building things like roads.

Taxation is different than a government making it mandatory for people to buy a product. A packaged health insurance deal is a product. Btw, I think the income tax etc is unconstitutional. Lastly nothing is black and white. There is no such thing as 100% pure communism socialism or capitalism.

Christianity is also a socialist philosophy. Jesus flat said so in relation to health care. I find it interesting that a Christian could be against following the example of the Good Samaritan and still claim to be Christian. That parable leaves no wriggle room and supposedly came straight out of his mouth. Jesus was real upfront on this "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing. That's socialistic. "Do unto other...". Socialist.

Religion and government are different things in this age, in the USA. If we lived in a theocracy maybe you might have a point. Jesus if he were alive today may express communist (communal) ideas, however he suggested VOLUNTARY giving. Lastly forgive me if I do not find you, a professed unbeliever a peer when it comes to the interpretation of scripture. Scripter tells us that those that read Gods word in the flesh (but not in the spirit i.e. as believers) will not know the full meaning of scripture. Supporting scripture on request.

And the conservatives completely either disregard or outright lie. about the most successful and best countries to live in(as regards quality of life)are the most socialist ones. I love my country(I served 8 years), but that does not blind me to the fact that other countries do some things in a better way.

According to you.

But this is a subject for a whole thread of it's own. We should look without ideological blinders at what works for other countries and learn something that will make our own country their equal or better.

I think we should look to our constitution.

For example Denmark has universal, single payer basic healthcare. But the insurance companies make a profit and those with more money can get anything they want. They also have an economy that has not been dragged down by employers not being able to offer healthcare and their per capita income is increasing, their unemployment low. They pay about 41% income taxes to live in a country more compliant with the teachings of Jesus. Not a bad thing.

It works for them. That is all you can say. I agree that healthcare reform is needed. Obamacare is not the solution for 2100 unread reasons. Its a dangerous mess that should be destroyed.

Eric evidently got a different message. Knowing(as I do) the very churches in question I really have little doubt that "vengance is mine" was not a part of those sermons(the Westboroughs of the world are not unique, just loud). When you convince someone that someone else is a murderer he may or may not feel justified in taking you at your word. This is directly analogous to the Wahabi sects talking people into suicide bombings. Most Muslims abhor this, but agree with the prejudices that are at it's heart. There are always those willing to go the next logical(if you accept the premises)step. Like Bill Ayers did with the war protest paradigm. Like Eric Rudolf did with the abortion is murder opinion. Not saying it's right, just saying it is.

Whats your point?

That is a lie.

Where is your sources?

(excerpt)Fox has a habit of removing embarrassing materials from their public records, it is no longer possible to get video of that day..

Rigggggghtttt. No longer to get the evidence eh? Try that in court.

And the evidence says that she did, or are you going to argue that Fox News, Fox Nation and FoxNews.com are not "associated" a whole lot more than Obama and Ayers are.

You have a funny way of comparing apples and oranges. Ayers should of been executed* as an enemy combatant engaged in treasonous acts against the state , Obama hasn't done anything as serious as Ayers...yet.

* my religion forces me not to abide by the DP, so I would be satisfied with life in prison.

Fox had much to do with it.>>>>SNIPPED FOR BREVITY<<<< for theirs).

MSMBC is worse than FOX. I only defend FOX when lies are spread about them. I am not politically conservative, but I am religious, and so me yielding to the ultimate moral authority allows me to embrace the conservative side of issues, especially those that concern the immoral and illegal* taking of life, such as abortion and such things.

According to natural rights and natural law.

rs
[/quote]

[RevSpecter]

My apologies for posting the raw unedited (for grammar and such) reply. My word processor froze up while editing and I had to shut down the entire computer to unfreeze it. By the time I got fired back up the edit tag was gone, so before jumping to any conclusions please ask me to clarify first. Its time for a new computer I suppose. (or at least a new hard-drive and OS) rs

[RevSpecter]

The strange thing is if Fox did nothing wrong then why did Bill O'Reilly have the integrity to at least apologize for what he said? Stranger still is how desperately you look for the slightest error in everything Maddow says and immediately jump to the conclusion it is a lie but when a conservative commentator repeatedly makes boldfaced lies you ignore it entirely.

You have a distorted view of the process. Grumpy said Maddow doesnt lie and NEVER has lied. That is a statement that begs to be corrected. And that is what I did. I shouldnt have bothered it was such an outlandish statement to begin with that anyone reading it should be able to distinguish it as not true via common sense.

This is the third supposed lie you claim Maddow has said, none of which can actually be said to be a lie

With all due respect, nice (deceptive? leading? propaganda?) wording.

while on the other hand entire books have been written about the lies of Limbaugh and yet he has been one of if not the leading conservative voice in America for the last twenty years.

We are not talking about Limbaugh are we? And I wouldnt give Limbaugh that title either. He is a talk show host, and that should be the perceptive he is judged by. I would agree he is one of the top in terms of ratings popular conservative talk show hosts. However, you must have missed how I get my news and how I extrapolate the truth from said sources.

I stand by my rebuttmantes made to Grumpys claims that Maddow doesnt lie and never has lied. He is and was incorrect.

rs

[East of Eden]

Grumpy also KNOWS that the challenge for you or Ae to come up with a single instance of Racheal Maddow telling a lie or even making an honest mistake that she did not later correct has not been met The two truly pitiful attempts seems to have shown you your error, you haven't addressed it again. So, no, all reporters do not lie despite their biases, they do not make things up to further their political interests, but the ones at Fox certainly do, it has been documented in this thread.

Allow me to assist Mr. Winepusher's ? Ms Maddow lies just as well as all of the paid news employee's. I don't fully trust any of them, and that is the reason I take all of them 'in aggregate' and attempt to extrapolate 'average' claims etc, then form my own opinions. Additionally, I attempt to source via nontraditional methods news about events etc that are very important to me. I use shortwave and satt. radio for Islamic and other middle east news/issues for example.

Lastly I will comment about a few of Maddows mis-truths. The proof needed to prove Grumpys claims inaccurate were as close as the net and a search engine. I retained and pasted the Google descriptive paragraph to aid the potential reader in deciding if he or she wants to link to the site;

Rachel Maddow lies: Fox had absolutely nothing to do with the ...
Jul 26, 2010 ... Fox reports that Shirley Sherrod has already resigned, yet Rachel Maddow uses them as evidence that she resigned because of Fox News.

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/rachel-mad ... ey-sherrod

rs

And a web site that is titled 'I hate the media' is a valid site for unbiased information? WOW. Amazing. Particularly when they keep on blathering about 'Liberal bias'..

Looking at the 'articles' it presents, it is nothing but a neocon hate site.

Want to address the article itself? The fact is Sherrod resigned before FOX mentioned it, which makes Maddow a liar by blaming FOX for the resignation.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

Want to address the article itself? The fact is Sherrod resigned before FOX mentioned it, which makes Maddow a liar by blaming FOX for the resignation.

RevSpecter

I stand by my rebuttmantes made to Grumpys claims that Maddow doesnt lie and never has lied. He is and was incorrect.

Want to address the truth, that FoxNews.com had the deceptively edited video on their website BEFORE she resigned, and Racheal Maddow was not lying when she said so. I gave you an unbiased timeline that shows that, evidently it was an inconvenient fact to be ignored.

You guys are now 0-3(or is it 0-4)in your desperate attempts to show your claim of "everybody does it" re Racheal is true. How many more attempts before the retraction of the false statements begin? My statement that Racheal does not lie still stands with no successful, honest challenges.

Lastly forgive me if I do not find you, a professed unbeliever a peer when it comes to the interpretation of scripture. Scripter tells us that those that read Gods word in the flesh (but not in the spirit i.e. as believers) will not know the full meaning of scripture. Supporting scripture on request.

My father was a Southern Baptist Missionary, a pastor to multiple churches and the summertime baby sitter for me and my three siblings. I was steeped and marinated in the Blood of the Lamb for most of my childhood, and I am fairly certain I could embarrass you in a Bible drill. I went to at least 4 separate vacation Bible schools(every year), unlocked the church door every time they were opened and even taught Sunday School, believed it all...until I learned about science and the real world and learned the superstitious, supernatural things taught to me by religion were pure unadulterated rubbish. It really came as a big shock that all those people were teaching falsehoods to children so they could teach falsehoods to their children...

Now you try the "No true Scotsman could know" tactic, it really doesn't have a good track record here, I recommend actually addressing the point.

And the conservatives completely either disregard or outright lie. about the most successful and best countries to live in(as regards quality of life)are the most socialist ones. I love my country(I served 8 years), but that does not blind me to the fact that other countries do some things in a better way.

According to you.

According to the facts, which conservatives here have a problem addressing.

Of the top 50 cities worldwide Vienna, Austria(a socialist country)is number one, Switzerland(a socialist country)has 3 of the top ten and of the 50 top cities the socialists have 17 of them(here I would point out that all of them besides France are really no bigger than an average state in the US).The first American city is 31st.

But this is a subject for a whole thread of it's own. We should look without ideological blinders at what works for other countries and learn something that will make our own country their equal or better.

I think we should look to our constitution.

Especially the provide for the common good part. There are a couple of stories Jesus taught that are relevant as well.

It works for them. That is all you can say. I agree that healthcare reform is needed. Obamacare is not the solution for 2100 unread reasons. Its a dangerous mess that should be destroyed.

No, it isn't, but that is the conservative talking point. The individual mandate(which was in the bill Mitt Romney signed into law)is the only provision contained in the bill which the American Public does not like. That is why the bill will not be repealed. It should have been a single payer system(like the Congress enjoys at our expense)for a basic level of preventative care. If someone wants a Cadillac plan like our Congressmen have, then they should pay for that out of their own pocket.

But Jesus left you no wriggle room on this one, the Parable of the Good Samaritan shows you what you should "Go and do likewise" when it comes to your fellow man's need for healthcare in no uncertain terms. The Samaritan did not ask the man if he was in the country legally, he did not ask if he had any insurance, he did not know who the person was or his politics. Nor did he hesitate to pay for his fellow man's care at that time and into the future indefinite, not knowing he would ever be repaid. I'm sure you call our Country a Christian Nation(I don't agree, but I want my country to act morally), how can we be Christian if we don't follow the core teaching of the man the religion is based on?

And the "As ye have done to the least of these" is a warning as well as a blessing.

Right now the least in my country are hurting badly, mostly because the most are stealing the country blind and refusing to step up to their responsibility to give back to the country that made it possible for them to become rich. If every person paid the 30%(above standard deduction of a base poverty level)or so that middle income earners average we would have no deficit with current spending levels. But because our highest earners only pay 15%, we have big deficits. It just doesn't add up. The least able to pay because of need pay more than the ones who need it least.

Whats your point?

There are always those willing to go the next logical(if you accept the premises)step. If you call someone a murderer there are those who will take you at your word. Not everyone is sane, stable or intelligent, they do stupid things and you could be the trigger for those stupid things with irresponsible, over the top rhetoric, they may even do it to gain your respect or regard.

And speaking with such disregard for any possible consequences is another thing I don't think Jesus would do. Am I wrong?

That is a lie.

Where is your sources?

Quote:
(excerpt)Fox has a habit of removing embarrassing materials from their public records, it is no longer possible to get video of that day..

Rigggggghtttt. No longer to get the evidence eh? Try that in court.

So you didn't bother to read my cite and I must resort to a wall of text to make sure the evidence is put before your eyes?

Fact-FoxNews.com posted a deceptively edited video on their site prior to the resignation, just as Racheal said.

Fact the title of the deceptive video was changed after the resignation.

Fact, the edited video and it's article can no longer be found on FoxNews.com, the only copies are those on sites which downloaded it.

Fact-Fox News has removed all video of that day from there site.

Questions?

You have a funny way of comparing apples and oranges. Ayers should of been executed* as an enemy combatant engaged in treasonous acts against the state , Obama hasn't done anything as serious as Ayers...yet.

So, do you feel the same way about Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney? Ayers was never convicted of anything, he did not kill anyone. I know Libby committed perjury and I do not think for a moment he committed treason as his own idea. A problem with being at the top is there are fewer and fewer lackeys to blame as you go up. Since Libby didn't make the decision to out an undercover CIA agent in time of war with the country the agent was undercover for(IE Treason)...

I do know that if a Democratic Vice President did that the howls of the Conservatives would never ends short of a lynching. Since it was Cheney, not a peep.

MSMBC is worse than FOX.

Not supported by the facts. You guys are 0-3 for even a hint of a misspeak or uncorrected error on Racheal's part, but whole books could be published on the whoppers Fox tells. Rev, if it takes falsehoods to support your beliefs, isn't it possible your beliefs are in error?

Grumpy

[East of Eden]

My father was a Southern Baptist Missionary, a pastor to multiple churches and the summertime baby sitter for me and my three siblings. I was steeped and marinated in the Blood of the Lamb for most of my childhood, and I am fairly certain I could embarrass you in a Bible drill. I went to at least 4 separate vacation Bible schools(every year), unlocked the church door every time they were opened and even taught Sunday School, believed it all...until I learned about science and the real world and learned the superstitious, supernatural things taught to me by religion were pure unadulterated rubbish. It really came as a big shock that all those people were teaching falsehoods to children so they could teach falsehoods to their children...

Grumpy

Yes, in the parable of the sower Jesus predicted the seed would sometimes fall on rocky soil and do nothing..........

[RevSpecter]

I stand by my rebuttmantes made to Grumpys claims that Maddow doesnt lie and never has lied. He is and was incorrect. Want to address the truth, that FoxNews.com had the deceptively edited video on their website BEFORE she resigned, and Racheal Maddow was not lying when she said so. I gave you an unbiased timeline that shows that, evidently it was an inconvenient fact to be ignored.

If you have been reading my posts you should know I am no fan of any media, I am suspicious of anything that is motivated by the love of money. I simply think that the core values of FOX, whether motivated by money or not are more ethical and moral than the leftist sites, whom by default tend to be less moral and ethical (when viewed by my perspective), the same way the left influenced sites seem to be more to your liking, morally or ethically. So Ms Maddox being human has lied, and its the statement where you say that MS Maddox has never lied etc that I took issue with. Never is an expansive concept! You have a habit of attempting to redirect the issues etc by bringing FOX, the local dog catcher, what we had for dinner last night etc into the fray. (ha ha just a little levity to demonstrate how I feel about your claims).

You guys are now 0-3(or is it 0-4)in your desperate attempts to show your claim of "everybody does it" re Racheal is true. How many more attempts before the retraction of the false statements begin? My statement that Racheal does not lie still stands with no successful, honest challenges.

You are ignoring the evidence.

My father was a Southern Baptist Missionary, a pastor to multiple churches and the summertime baby sitter for me and my three siblings. I was steeped and marinated in the Blood of the Lamb for most of my childhood, and I am fairly certain I could embarrass you in a Bible drill. I went to at least 4 separate vacation Bible schools(every year), unlocked the church door every time they were opened and even taught Sunday School, believed it all...until I learned about science and the real world and learned the superstitious, supernatural things taught to me by religion were pure unadulterated rubbish. It really came as a big shock that all those people were teaching falsehoods to children so they could teach falsehoods to their children...

Well I am not interested in a peeing contest they are pointless and only demonstrate how much we haven't learned while enjoying our long stay on this planet. I admire your fathers faith and yours, while you possessed it. However, the outcome was and is sad. (your apostasy). I was born an atheist and have practiced red letter Christianity as well as nearly all the worlds major religions searching for the truth. I found the truth nearly 10 years ago (a form of Open Theism). My formal education and an NDE is what brought me (finally) to the Christian God and it was just like a square peg finding a round hole, but it fit perfectly via a quantum fluctuation (while the virtual square peg and round hole briefly existed in superposition! Ha ha, forgive me the crude analogy!)

In any case, even considering your statements, with all due respect, it would not matter if you were the Pope and fell away you would still 'only' be the non-believer that you are today. All your past history and claims exist in 'another life', today you are simply an atheist*, meaning no disrespect. If you do know your bible as well as you claim you already know that reading the bible in the flesh is not the same as reading it in the spirit.

* I feel atheists are for the majority good moral and ethical people. Just like all groups, Christians included, there exists those are malicious and exist to troll and cause pain and suffering. As a christian leader/pastor I deny that they are christian, but that's material for another thread eh?

Of course now you would scoff at that concept, however that scoff only confirms and demonstrates the devastating spiritual injury that apostasy inflicts. IMO the old one has you and he is happy with his conquest. I am not preaching or even suggesting anything, simply providing information so that we might debate without such an intense confrontational atmosphere. Lastly I dont proselytize for the simple reason that we need atheists to grease the wheels of this temporal deterministic universe. (ha ha just adding some levity!) , but really I believe that the universe needs atheists just as much as Christians. However, its also my belief that if every person on earth converted to Christianity that we would all be ruptured and this earth and universe would change into something eternal. However if we all chose to deny God exists God would again destroy his creation, as he well should!

According to the facts, which conservatives here have a problem addressing. Of the top 50 cities worldwide Vienna, Austria(a socialist country)is number one, Switzerland(a socialist country)has 3 of the top ten and of the 50 top cities the socialists have 17 of them(here I would point out that all of them besides France are really no bigger than an average state in the US).The first American city is 31st.

Most of those polls and statistics have a vested interest to be as they are, and proves what the author wants proved. In my battles with anti gun nuts I am amazed at how they twist the real facts and use polls and statistics to prove their points. I have been around and havent been to one country that I would rather live in, even though I suffered through abject poverty the first 8>10 years of my life.

Especially the provide for the common good part. There are a couple of stories Jesus taught that are relevant as well.

I have said ten thousand times if once that all governments are evil by default. I am no friend of government, and that is an understatement.

No, it isn't, but that is the conservative talking point. The individual mandate(which was in the bill Mitt Romney signed into law)is the only provision contained in the bill which the American Public does not like. That is why the bill will not be repealed. It should have been a single payer system(like the Congress enjoys at our expense)for a basic level of preventative care. If someone wants a Cadillac plan like our Congressmen have, then they should pay for that out of their own pocket.

I will only agree that the IM is the most hated part of Obamacare. Its not the only part that is detested. As I said I am not against some socialism due to the fact that we by the logical positivists (read as the secular scientists, the secular progressive liberals etc etc) have already opened Pandoras technological box and can not now close it. However Obamacare is more like a tumor than a truffle. We need to cut out the tumor and throw it away eat the truffles and replace Obamacare with a sane readable healthcare system. You say you are a veteran. Unless you are combat injured which have much better access to the VA health care, do you really want a system that is like the VA? I have been waiting for a year for an operation from the VA, and have been on crutches for three months now. NO THANKS! I have in the mean time paid for a private MD to redo my knee.

But Jesus left you no wriggle room on this one, the Parable of the Good Samaritan shows you what you should "Go and do likewise" when it comes to your fellow man's need for healthcare in no uncertain terms. The Samaritan did not ask the man if he was in the country legally, he did not ask if he had any insurance, he did not know who the person was or his politics. Nor did he hesitate to pay for his fellow man's care at that time and into the future indefinite, not knowing he would ever be repaid. I'm sure you call our Country a Christian Nation(I don't agree, but I want my country to act morally), how can we be Christian if we don't follow the core teaching of the man the religion is based on? And the "As ye have done to the least of these" is a warning as well as a blessing.

We must render to Caesars what is Caesars Jesus was very clear, he meant to obey the law of the land. (if you are not a truly liberal Christian and read the gospels in the traditional manner). So what I want and what the positive law requires* are two different things. If I could wish something and make it so, we would be living with Jesus Christ ruling us right now! However sadly we have no short cuts at this time and must live and be tempered through the pain of a lifetime of learning the hard way, by doing and experiencing the good with the bad, sometimes its Job bad ain't it? That only makes our spiritual steel more pure and good ! And apparently for all of us its the only way.

In extreme cases like the moneychangers setting up shop in the temple Jesus did disobey the law of the land. Its the same for me. I would not obey an order to abort an child or murder anyone, such as the Germans were ordered to do to the Jews. Hitler disobeyed no law, and that is why secular humanism can be a dangerous slide down the fallacious slippery slope!

Right now the least in my country are hurting badly, mostly because the most are stealing the country blind and refusing to step up to their responsibility to give back to the country that made it possible for them to become rich. If every person paid the 30%(above standard deduction of a base poverty level)or so that middle income earners average we would have no deficit with current spending levels. But because our highest earners only pay 15%, we have big deficits. It just doesn't add up. The least able to pay because of need pay more than the ones who need it least.

I dont pay very much tax. However I feel the Fair tax is the best proposal out there. I believe the current system is beyond unfair and even corrupt in some areas.

There are always those willing to go the next logical(if you accept the premises)step. If you call someone a murderer there are those who will take you at your word. Not everyone is sane, stable or intelligent, they do stupid things and you could be the trigger for those stupid things with irresponsible, over the top rhetoric, they may even do it to gain your respect or regard.

It would be fully impossible to guard against all unstable people out there. If a guy is in the last stages of a mental disease I may say, All men are created equal and the insane person think I am saying to kill kill kill ! Ha ha. No, what we need is a better mental health system and to enforce the laws already in place. I choose to live in a semi free nation and accept the fact that the more freedom one has the greater ones personal safety or security may be at risk. Many people as they age, or become infirm because of injury etc are willing to exchange freedom for perceived safety. I see many of my friends slipping into geezer-hood asking for that security, and its sad. If one wants to trade their freedom for a little security let them do it, but
Please, step back a mile or two or I ask they go away from me for they breath my free air! They would probably pay a good sum of their income for theirs.

Questions?

See my reply about my fondness of any traditional talking news sites (above).

So, do you feel the same way about Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney? Ayers was never convicted of anything, he did not kill anyone. I know Libby committed perjury and I do not think for a moment he committed treason as his own idea. A problem with being at the top is there are fewer and fewer lackeys to blame as you go up. Since Libby didn't make the decision to out an undercover CIA agent in time of war with the country the agent was undercover for(IE Treason)...

I do know that if a Democratic Vice President did that the howls of the Conservatives would never ends short of a lynching. Since it was Cheney, not a peep.

Here is what Ayers has participated in ; Leader of the 1960s and 70s domestic terrorist group Weatherman Kill all the rich people. ... Bring the revolution home. Kill your parents. Participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, and the Pentagon in 1972. I am no fan of any criminals unless they are defending natural law. However Aryers crimes are worse than the people you mentioned. Personally I think that many of the right wing pundits are war criminals and profiteers, but we are talking about Ayers not Manson.

MSMBC is worse than FOX.

Not supported by the facts. You guys are 0-3 for even a hint of a misspeak or uncorrected error on Racheal's part, but whole books could be published on the whoppers Fox tells. Rev, if it takes falsehoods to support your beliefs, isn't it possible your beliefs are in error?[/quote]

Here is the rest of what I said in that paragraph that you so craftily edited, much like MSNBC eh? ; DA REV SAID>>>>>>MSNBC is worse than FOX. I only defend FOX when lies are spread about them. I am not politically conservative, but I am religious, and so me yielding to the ultimate moral authority allows me to embrace the conservative side of issues, especially those that concern the immoral and illegal* taking of life, such as abortion and such things.

*According to natural rights and natural law. <<<<<<<<<<

So yes, indeed yes, I stand by my words, and its a lot of words eh...(sorry for the length)!

rs