HITLER and TRUMP

[2Dbunk]

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer reveals the history of Adoph Hitlers efforts in a very, very negative way. But there are some (small amount?) who disagree. Likewise the Holocaust deniers claim that history was distorted by the victors claims of gross genocide. Most rational people that I know agree with the former " that Nazism is highly unethical!

Im in the process of reading "Bonhoeffer" (published in 2011) and find that Eric Metaxas confirms much, if not all, of Shirers history. What's most disturbing is that many passages in the text show Hitlers chaotic politics, mannerisms, and untruthfulness could be attributed to Donald Trump (just reverse their names).

Bonhoeffer was a theologian in Germany who was basically a fundamentalist (the established churches of the 1920s and 30s he found superficial when it came to celebrating the spirit of Jesus). Bonhoeffer quickly became disillusioned with Hitlers manipulation of those main stream churches and the dictator's disdain for everything Christian while providing lip service to it so as to maintain his religious demeanor with the common folk (or he would not have survived in politics, duh).

I ask if anyone cares to debate the Donalds intentions in making America great again in a (subtle?) but parallel way of Hitlers efforts to make Germany great again? For that matter one might even throw in Trumps parroting of Putins making Russia great again (Trump does seem to have an affinity for dictators " he even said he wouldnt mind the opportunity to try that role).

One other question for debate: Why are evangelical Republicans and some Democrats lapping up his chaotic, untruthful soup? With all the indictments docketed the swamp seems to be getting deeper -- and thicker.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

I get why they voted for him. What I don't get is why they still support him after his total corruption has been laid so bare. And I completely reject the notion that any other candidate of any party compares unfavorably to him.

We have a difference of opinion regarding his so called "total corruption". And there is no pro-life Democrat in the field. In fact, the chairman of the DNC made it clear that there is no room for anyone in the Democrat party if they are pro-life. Or do they call it "anti- choice". The Democrats are hostile to the values Christian conservatives hold dear, ie traditional values (and no, racism is not what we mean by "traditional values"). Donald Trump, despite his flaws, is not.

Joe Biden is a good and articulate, passionate advocate for the little guy. If he would return to his pro-life, traditional Catholic values, I believe many of us would vote for him. But if he did, I doubt very much he would ever get the Democratic nomination.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

This is a direct challenge to you, EJ:

2Dbunk wrote:

It would be interesting if Trump and Biden become the 2020 matchup: Trump's "Make America Great Again" v. Biden's "Make America Moral Again." How would evangelicals handle "money" and crassness v. "morality" and dignity?

How would you vote in such a polarized matchup? OR, Leave those two contenders out of the contest -- would you vote money and crassness over morality and dignity?

That is somewhat of a false dichotomy you are laying out for me, as Trump is more than "crassness and money" as you say. Though President Trump is not the embodiment of morality, granted, he does champion the traditional values many Christian conservatives (including myself) hold dear.

And Joe Biden is not the epitome of morality and dignity, imo. But no one's perfect. I do think Mr. Biden is more likable, but that is a superficial consideration in deciding how to elect a president.

So unless Joe Biden returns to his Catholic values instead of bowing to the moral corruption of his party, I intend to vote for Donald Trump, again.

The jury's still out on that, but I'm not holding my breath.

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

Thanks for taking up the challenge.

That is somewhat of a false dichotomy you are laying out for me, as Trump is more than "crassness and money" as you say. Though President Trump is not the embodiment of morality, granted, he does champion the traditional values many Christian conservatives (including myself) hold dear.

Why paint it false? It is only a hypothetical -- not set in stone. Sounds like a dodge to me. And you are right about Trump being MORE than just being crass and in love with moneyed interests. Ghandi once said that "I respect the good life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but I don't much care for Christians."

And Joe Biden is not the epitome of morality and dignity, imo. But no one's perfect. I do think Mr. Biden is more likable, but that is a superficial consideration in deciding how to elect a president.

Another dodge! You are entitled to your opinion, and your rationalization that decency is a "superficial" quality in a president. Next you'll be telling us that Biden should be careful of "casting the first stone" -- spare us that sermon, please. At any rate, it has been Trump whose been throwing stones (and his aim has been lackluster).

So unless Joe Biden returns to his Catholic values instead of bowing to the moral corruption of his party, I intend to vote for Donald Trump, again.

.


Moral corruption my ______ cavity! The Republican party has made it its business to make the 21st century the century of immoral wars -- none very successful I might add, and at a cost of lives and money that even anti-abortionists can't really rationalize. You mention abortion in all posts herein; funny, the Bible mentions it not once. Why are you and other theists limiting humanity's potential with such policy? Is it because we are an endangered species (I wasn't aware that Republicans were so sensitive about endangerment in other species)?

People of your persuasion (I sometimes call it an infliction) don't believe in family planning, as if overpopulation is not a problem in the future (I guess because Jesus will be coming real soon -- just like former Republican Secretary of Interior James Watt disdained implementing cogent long-term environmental policy because of that imminent advent.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 23 by 2Dbunk]

How exactly do you consider my answers to your challenge "dodges"? Actually, I didn't dodge your challenge, because I answered you. IF Joe Biden were the nominee against Trump, I would vote for Biden provided he returned to his Catholic values, pro-life etc. But unless Mr.Biden returns to traditional Catholic values, I intend to vote for Donald Trump once again.

Let's hold off on the moral corruption of the Democrat party for the time being. I will address it though, very soon on this thread. But it is an insufficient refutation of the charge to attempt to divert attention to the Republican party's failings.

[Elijah John]

OK let's give it a go. The moral corruption issue. It goes both ways. Let's start with your charges first.

Moral corruption my ______ cavity! The Republican party has made it its business to make the 21st century the century of immoral wars -- none very successful I might add, and at a cost of lives and money that even anti-abortionists can't really rationalize.

Examples please.

You mention abortion in all posts herein; funny, the Bible mentions it not once.

Not verbatim, but Bible principles condemn the taking of innocent life.

Why are you and other theists limiting humanity's potential with such policy?

So abortion enchances human potential? You've got to be kidding. Abortion put's a stop to human potential right off the bat. The aborted person's potential anyway. Pro-choice policies could be aborting geniuses or great philanthropists by your policy. THAT is limiting human potential.

Is it because we are an endangered species (I wasn't aware that Republicans were so sensitive about endangerment in other species)?

For the record, I am not a Republican, but a right-leaning Independent. So you question my concern,? Do you think human beings are disposable?

People of your persuasion (I sometimes call it an infliction) don't believe in family planning,

"My persuasion"? What would that be? I am a Christian conservative, but not a Fundamentalist. And does family planning include abortion? Is abortion a moral means of birth control in your book?

as if overpopulation is not a problem in the future (I guess because Jesus will be coming real soon -- just like former Republican Secretary of Interior James Watt disdained implementing cogent long-term environmental policy because of that imminent advent.

Nice try. I an not awaiting the return of Jesus Christ. He was supposed to have done that in the lifetime of his own apostles. (Mt. 16.28) And I do care about the planet, the repair of the world. Healing humanity as well as caring for the environment. To be co-creators of a better world is the moral duty of all believers, though we have Judaism to thank for the concept of "tikkun olam".

Now, onto the moral corruption of the Democrat party.

-Obama used to favor traditional marriage, now he claims he has "evolved" on that issue.
-It used to be just "gay rights". Now it is "LBGTQIA+" (and just what are "bisexual" rights, what is a "bisexual" marraige?) Seems the Democrats are buying into the whole agenda now, and on college campuses engaging in name-calling, "transphobic" for people who embrace biological reality, and not PC redefinition.



Where is Democrat condemnation for such tactics?

-Some Democrats like Maxine Waters encourage harassment of people they don't agree with:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ma ... ORM=VRDGAR

-Democrats are distracting the pilot, as Alan Dershowitz stated last night. Distracting Trump with endless investigations, even after the Mueller report. This at taxpayer expense, time and money

-

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

I get why they voted for him. What I don't get is why they still support him after his total corruption has been laid so bare. And I completely reject the notion that any other candidate of any party compares unfavorably to him.

We have a difference of opinion regarding his so called "total corruption". And there is no pro-life Democrat in the field. In fact, the chairman of the DNC made it clear that there is no room for anyone in the Democrat party if they are pro-life. Or do they call it "anti- choice". The Democrats are hostile to the values Christian conservatives hold dear, ie traditional values (and no, racism is not what we mean by "traditional values").

I agree with you on many issues, but you are WAY off the mark here. Most Democrats and (I believe) the majority of relatively quiet Christians, agree with the same values most atheists have. Those values were largely promulgated by Jesus Christ, the Buddha, and Gandhi, none of whom talked about abortion.

For reasons I think unflattering to them, public Christians focus on their 'cheerleading issues, such as being gay and condemning a woman's right to control her own body. To them, these issues are more important than lying, stealing, hypocrisy, and adultery. I have ZERO respect for this kind of anti Christian thinking. Franklin Graham and Donald Trump are today's poster boys for this kind of thin corrupt thinking.

Trump can hardly talk without lying. He is a cheat, an serial adulterer, and a sexual predator who has desperately tried to build his treasure on Earth, not in heaven. He has NOTHING in common with true Christianity.

[Danmark]

So unless Joe Biden returns to his Catholic values instead of bowing to the moral corruption of his party, I intend to vote for Donald Trump, again.

I am truly surprised. Is the abortion issue so important to you that it overrides EVERYTHING? Do you really think that either Pope Francis or Jesus of Nazareth would vote for a racist thief and sexual predator like Trump?

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 24 by Elijah John]

How exactly do you consider my answers to your challenge "dodges"? Actually, I didn't dodge your challenge, because I answered you. IF Joe Biden were the nominee against Trump, I would vote for Biden provided he returned to his Catholic values, pro-life etc. But unless Mr.Biden returns to traditional Catholic values, I intend to vote for Donald Trump once again.

I expected more than just ecclesiastical boilerplate. Your answers were predictable and added nothing to the conversation. But then rationalizing in the defense of mindless traditon is expected from the religiously afflicted. No, you didn't dodge my challenge but I feel you didn't address my concerns about the character of the two candidates -- there is something missing in your defense of Trump!

IMO women should have absolute control of whatever goes on with their bodies. It is nobody else's business let alone clergy and fundamentalist theists -- certainly not bloated politicians playing on the fears of an electorate hidebound about getting to some place they call heaven.

You deplore my bringing up the past sins of the last Bush Administration, but it's okay for Trump and the Republicans to rail and rant about Obama and the Clintons. Don't expect to have it both ways while defending your man and party!

Let's hold off on the moral corruption of the Democrat party for the time being. I will address it though, very soon on this thread. But it is an insufficient refutation of the charge to attempt to divert attention to the Republican party's failings.

Well then, don't call my party morally corrupt! Both parties are made up of wishy-washy spineless bottom feeders IMO, but I can't let pass the lackluster morality of your party.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

I get why they voted for him. What I don't get is why they still support him after his total corruption has been laid so bare. And I completely reject the notion that any other candidate of any party compares unfavorably to him.

We have a difference of opinion regarding his so called "total corruption". And there is no pro-life Democrat in the field. In fact, the chairman of the DNC made it clear that there is no room for anyone in the Democrat party if they are pro-life. Or do they call it "anti- choice". The Democrats are hostile to the values Christian conservatives hold dear, ie traditional values (and no, racism is not what we mean by "traditional values").

I agree with you on many issues, but you are WAY off the mark here. Most Democrats and (I believe) the majority of relatively quiet Christians, agree with the same values most atheists have. Those values were largely promulgated by Jesus Christ, the Buddha, and Gandhi, none of whom talked about abortion.

I hope you are not claiming that the "woman's right to choose" is one of those values that Jesus, the Buddha, and Gandhi held and promoted. Even indirectly.

For reasons I think unflattering to them, public Christians focus on their 'cheerleading issues, such as being gay and condemning a woman's right to control her own body.

"Her own body"? So, we are talking about virgin births here? As though the man had nothing to do with it? Also, when is the last time a woman gave birth to herself? The baby in the womb is a unique individual.

To them, these issues are more important than lying, stealing, hypocrisy, and adultery. I have ZERO respect for this kind of anti Christian thinking. Franklin Graham and Donald Trump are today's poster boys for this kind of thin corrupt thinking.

Trump can hardly talk without lying. He is a cheat, an serial adulterer, and a sexual predator who has desperately tried to build his treasure on Earth, not in heaven. He has NOTHING in common with true Christianity.

Trump was all of those things. And I agree, there is evidence that he has not totally overcome his habit of lying. (what politician has?) But once again, Christians who support Donald Trump do so in spite of his past character flaws not because of them. We support his policies, not his character. The things you list have very little to do with policy. Wasn't it Democrats who made the distinction between a politicians personal vs their private lives? The Clinton era, as I recall.

Also, Obama lied to sell Obamacare. I guess the ends justifies the means?

Again, many conservative Christians support Donald Trump because the Democrats offer nothing for an alternative. The only ones I see in the current field with an ounce of dignity or integrity are Pete Buttegeig, and Marianne Williamson. Biden is likable, but I don't see much integrity in him either, at this point. The others all seem to be liars, name callers and flame throwers. But I have some policy differences with Mayor Pete and Marianne. And I don't like the way Buttegeig is attempting to pick a fight with Mike Pence since he has decided to run for president. Notice how VP Pence turns the other cheek? And will not be baited into saying anything bad about Mayor Pete?

I agree with you on this, though. The accumulation of wealth was never promoted by Jesus. And it is troubling that so many conservative Christians equate "success" with financial success. And it is troubling they way so many professed Christians celebrate the wealthy simply for being wealthy. They seem to have forgotten the values of the Kingdom, as enumerated by Jesus in the Beattitudes and his parables.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 24 by Elijah John]

How exactly do you consider my answers to your challenge "dodges"? Actually, I didn't dodge your challenge, because I answered you. IF Joe Biden were the nominee against Trump, I would vote for Biden provided he returned to his Catholic values, pro-life etc. But unless Mr.Biden returns to traditional Catholic values, I intend to vote for Donald Trump once again.

I expected more than just ecclesiastical boilerplate. Your answers were predictable and added nothing to the conversation. But then rationalizing in the defense of mindless traditon is expected from the religiously afflicted.

Rather dismissive of you, wouldn't you say 2dB? To say the least...

No, you didn't dodge my challenge but I feel you didn't address my concerns about the character of the two candidates -- there is something missing in your defense of Trump!

I don't recall ever defending his character. I have always made it clear I support Donald Trump because of his policies, perhaps you missed it.

IMO women should have absolute control of whatever goes on with their bodies.

As I mentioned to Danmark, when has a woman ever given birth to herself? The baby in the womb is a unique individual, even speaking biologically. The baby in the womb is not an appendage of the "woman's body" though many advocates of abortion attempt to dehumanize them by referring to them as such. Makes them more disposable, doesn't it?

It is nobody else's business let alone clergy and fundamentalist theists -- certainly not bloated politicians playing on the fears of an electorate hidebound about getting to some place they call heaven.

.

It is not only the business, but the duty of all who care about protecting innocent and helpless human life to defend life by opposing abortion on demand.

You deplore my bringing up the past sins of the last Bush Administration, but it's okay for Trump and the Republicans to rail and rant about Obama and the Clintons. Don't expect to have it both ways while defending your man and party!

?? Where do you get this?

Well then, don't call my party morally corrupt! Both parties are made up of wishy-washy spineless bottom feeders IMO, but I can't let pass the lackluster morality of your party.

First, the Republican party is not my party. There are several issues where I dissent from them. I am a right-leaning Independent. And not a Fundamentalist, either, as Danmark can attest.

OK, just for starters,

The moral corruption of the Democrat party:

-They jettison the presumption of innocence as demonstrated in the Kavanaugh hearings.
-They engage in name calling, and some encourage harassment of people they disagree with. (Maxine Watters for example, advocates this)
-They attempt to silence those they disagree with by labeling their speech, "hate speech" and as such, anything justifies the disruption of conservatives when they attempt to give speeches. Just ask Ben Shapiro and Jordon Peterson.
-They bear false witness by calling good people "racist" .
-The disparage people based on their skin color, especially white men.
-They accuse even poor white people of enjoying "white privilege.
-They demand the right to abortion on demand, killing babies in the womb as a method of birth control.
-Since abortion disproportionally kills more black babies than white, isn't abortion a racist policy?
-They deny biological reality by insisting there are more than two genders, and embrace the whole LBGTQUA+ agenda. And if you insist on biological reality, the more extreme Democrats will call you "transphobic" and will attempt to silence if not destroy you. (again, watch the video of Jordon Peterson trying to speak at Mcmaster U.)
-THe media allies of the Democrat party attempt to destroy the reputation of innocent children, such as Nicholas Sandman, while ignoring the harassing and hateful taunting directed at Sandman and his fellow students by the Black Hebew Israelites.

and five Black Hebrew Israelites, who taunted the students by shouting racist and homophobic slurs

From Wikipedia. Did CNN mention that fact?

-CNN's focus on mostly the negative when it comes to Donald Trump, and ignoring the positive. Like when Rabbi Goldstien who survived the California Synagogue shooting and expressed great gratitude to President Trump for his support and condolences. Fox covered it live, did CNN?

-Dems shielding the anti-Semite Ilhan Omar specifically, by condemning "hatred" in general. The "reprimand" was diluted by Nancy Pelosi and co.
-They encourage unfettered immigration, and are willing to risk the lives and well being of American citizens in the process. Some demonize ICE and border patrol agents for doing their jobs. Some Democrats, (such as AOC and Kirsten Gillibrand) want to abolish ICE altogether.
-They twist Donald Trumps statements about Charlottsville, bearing false witness.
-They advocate a generous social safety net, but encourage loose border controls. An untenable, and unsustainable combination.
-They tempt migrants to make dangerous journey's to the border by the incentives of loose asylum laws, chain migration policies, giving them driver's licences (which can be used as voter ID) and in-state tuition, etc, etc.
-They label people who want sensible control of our borders "racist" and "xenophobic", "white nationalist" etc. Or disliking "brown people" or opposing the "browning of America". (Yes, I do watch CNN too)
-They fail to protect health and safety of American citizens by tacitly encouraging illegal immigration which bypasses health screening and quarantines.
-President Obama imported Ebola patients from Africa for treatment in the US, risking the lives, health and safety of American citizens. A dereliction of duty to protect the American citizen, which should be the first duty of any American president. Donald Trump would NEVER put American lives at risk this way.

Shall we continue.....?