Should Muslims Undergo a Religous Test for Public Office?

[Darias]

Please watch this video about GOP hopeful Herman Cain, as he clarifies his stance on Muslims:

[center][youtube][/youtube][/center]


1. Is he (Mr. Cain) right? Why? If so, should the Constitution be amended to make exception for people of the Muslim Faith?

2. Does the GOP have any serious candidates who could actually win in 2012? Trump Cain and Palin aside?

[Tuff]

Well that's my point. This is about American Muslims not Muslims in other countries and societies.

If you were in Afghanistan, the most hard line conservative Muslim country on the planet, I could see where you get your views.

If you go to any non-Western country, you will have to barter a lot. It's how people make a living. How can you take your experiences at a market in Baghdad or wherever you were and superimpose those onto American Muslims, many of whom are westernized? How can you label all Muslims as "untrustworthy"

I mean I think that's total BS...

It's good that you pointed out the differences with Muslims in America and ones in the Middle East. They're not the same, no. However, if we start putting these people in power in our country, and they eventually did earn the position to do things that help Islamic countries over others. Representatives of Islam have multiple times stated Israel needs to be wiped out, burn American flags & say we need to die, etc. This is not an issue (on a above average sized scale) with any other religion on the planet. So yes there are differences, but some live amongst us with those same views.

Here's a question for you or anyone - if we were attacked again, an attack similar to 9/11 for the sake or argument, would that change anyone's view? OK what if if happened again after that? It's a valid question, one that could have any religion's name attached to it and the same question asked.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 31:

...However, if we start putting these people in power in our country, and they eventually did earn the position to do things that help Islamic countries over others. Representatives of Islam have multiple times stated Israel needs to be wiped out, burn American flags & say we need to die, etc. This is not an issue (on a above average sized scale) with any other religion on the planet. So yes there are differences, but some live amongst us with those same views.

Here's a question for you or anyone - if we were attacked again, an attack similar to 9/11 for the sake or argument, would that change anyone's view? OK what if if happened again after that? It's a valid question, one that could have any religion's name attached to it and the same question asked.

I gotta say, I'm just not seeing any major religion threatening the American way of life (warts and all) like I do potential growth of the the Muslim religion / political system in the US.

I think of nations with majority Muslim populations, and I shudder to think what may happen if Muslims gain a voting majority here in the Land of the Free. Sure, there's moderate Muslims, but when a moderate Muslim accepts the subjugation of women, and accepts laws in majority Muslim lands that by my eyes are downright barbaric, I think fear is a legitimate response to even moderates.

This is why I prefer that folks running for public office leave their religious views at home or in their churches, and publicly vow to ensure secularism in government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It's bad enough with Christian fundamentalists having a foothold to a theocracy, I'm absolutely paranoid about what would happen if Muslims were to gain one.

I say this knowing full well I may come across as bigoted. I accept that charge. In my defense, I point to the news, as well as various laws in majority Muslim lands.

[Choir Loft]

I don't know what country you went to or what interactions you had with the people there, but just because such interactions may have gone sour, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are potential time-bombs who hate this country and want to kill people -- I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally.

You don't know?

How strange. You project your opinion, which is based upon what? Thin air? Something you dreamed up? Kind hearted feelings and sympathy? Rubbish. Absolute childish rubbish. GROW UP.

You WILL grow up in one of two ways; listen carefully to those who know what they are talking about -or- learn at the ungentle hand of the Muslim.

My experience is based upon interaction with Muslims in: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia and Ethopia. Been there, done that and LIVED IT.

The truest lesson is the one you learn from the school of hard knocks.

The only knocking I perceive from you echos your empty philosophy.

So tell me, you of the sweet disposition, what Muslim countries have you visited and what lessons did you learn there among their own people? Please tell me, I am eager to hear of YOUR experiences.

Were you ever in fear of your life? Did you ever have commerce with them? If so how did you manage?

Nothing. You present nothing except childish fantasy and empty words.

Listen to one who KNOWS. One who has been there.

Never trust a Muslim.

[micatala]

I don't know what country you went to or what interactions you had with the people there, but just because such interactions may have gone sour, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are potential time-bombs who hate this country and want to kill people -- I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally.

You don't know?

How strange. You project your opinion, which is based upon what? Thin air? Something you dreamed up? Kind hearted feelings and sympathy? Rubbish. Absolute childish rubbish. GROW UP.

You WILL grow up in one of two ways; listen carefully to those who know what they are talking about -or- learn at the ungentle hand of the Muslim.

My experience is based upon interaction with Muslims in: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia and Ethopia. Been there, done that and LIVED IT.

The truest lesson is the one you learn from the school of hard knocks.

The only knocking I perceive from you echos your empty philosophy.

So tell me, you of the sweet disposition, what Muslim countries have you visited and what lessons did you learn there among their own people? Please tell me, I am eager to hear of YOUR experiences.

Were you ever in fear of your life? Did you ever have commerce with them? If so how did you manage?

Nothing. You present nothing except childish fantasy and empty words.

Listen to one who KNOWS. One who has been there.

Never trust a Muslim.

Moderator Comment


This post is demeaning of another poster in a number of spots.

It is fine to allude to your own personal experiences and knowledge in addressing a debate point. However, you should be able to do this without demeaning others.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[Choir Loft]

I don't know what country you went to or what interactions you had with the people there, but just because such interactions may have gone sour, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are potential time-bombs who hate this country and want to kill people -- I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally.

You don't know?

How strange. You project your opinion, which is based upon what? Thin air? Something you dreamed up? Kind hearted feelings and sympathy? Rubbish. Absolute childish rubbish. GROW UP.

You WILL grow up in one of two ways; listen carefully to those who know what they are talking about -or- learn at the ungentle hand of the Muslim.

My experience is based upon interaction with Muslims in: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia and Ethopia. Been there, done that and LIVED IT.

The truest lesson is the one you learn from the school of hard knocks.

The only knocking I perceive from you echos your empty philosophy.

So tell me, you of the sweet disposition, what Muslim countries have you visited and what lessons did you learn there among their own people? Please tell me, I am eager to hear of YOUR experiences.

Were you ever in fear of your life? Did you ever have commerce with them? If so how did you manage?

Nothing. You present nothing except childish fantasy and empty words.

Listen to one who KNOWS. One who has been there.

Never trust a Muslim.

Moderator Comment


This post is demeaning of another poster in a number of spots.

It is fine to allude to your own personal experiences and knowledge in addressing a debate point. However, you should be able to do this without demeaning others.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

The argument presented and which I take opposition to is baseless and unfounded in fact, in tradition, in experience and in rhetoric. I opposed the argument, not the person - while my opponent accused me personally of irrational unadult logic.

Quote...
"I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally."
end quote

I can accept that statement as it is part of the conversation. Adult conversation. Give and take. Fact vs. empty opinion and conjecture.

Is my opponent so incapable of defending their position that they must call in the thought police to do it for them?

If warnings concerning the content of debate are to be issued, it would serve as an example of fairness to all if BOTH sides in the contest were treated equally and addressed equally. I am waiting to see that here.

Personally I believe it to be a waste of the moderator's time when he/she has to salve the feelings of a participant who feels they have to run home to mommy when they dislike the direction a debate is taking.

[Darias]

I don't know what country you went to or what interactions you had with the people there, but just because such interactions may have gone sour, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are potential time-bombs who hate this country and want to kill people -- I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally.

You don't know?

How strange. You project your opinion, which is based upon what? Thin air? Something you dreamed up? Kind hearted feelings and sympathy? Rubbish. Absolute childish rubbish. GROW UP.

You WILL grow up in one of two ways; listen carefully to those who know what they are talking about -or- learn at the ungentle hand of the Muslim.

My experience is based upon interaction with Muslims in: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia and Ethopia. Been there, done that and LIVED IT.

The truest lesson is the one you learn from the school of hard knocks.

The only knocking I perceive from you echos your empty philosophy.

So tell me, you of the sweet disposition, what Muslim countries have you visited and what lessons did you learn there among their own people? Please tell me, I am eager to hear of YOUR experiences.

Were you ever in fear of your life? Did you ever have commerce with them? If so how did you manage?

Nothing. You present nothing except childish fantasy and empty words.

Listen to one who KNOWS. One who has been there.

Never trust a Muslim.

The Muslims I've met and studied with are all Americans, and those are the Muslims we are talking about in regards to Cain's cabinet choices. We aren't talking about Afghani warlords, Saudi Arabian sheiks, and Yemeni tribesmen...

We are talking about naturalized and American born Muslims in the U.S.

Just because you had negative experiences with various Muslims in other countries (and who knows how much of that negative reaction came from your own mistrust of Muslims to begin with) it doesn't mean you can logically apply those feelings towards all Muslims everywhere, especially Americans.

"Never trust a Muslim" is as ignorant in my view as "Never trust a n*****" -- and yes I know there is a difference between race and religion, but the fact is, people can say "never trust a ...." using their own personal experience or whatever...

A racist might say never trust black people cause some black folks were mean to them at one point in their lives, or they may base it on the stereotypes that all black folks are gang bangers or whatever...

and they would probably have no black friends... and they would probably cite reverend wright or malcom X as evidence for why they don't trust black people...

But its still an ignorant position...

And whether its Muslims, Jews, Gays, or African Americans, the principle of bigotry is the same...

I'm sorry your experiences with Muslims around the world has led you to conclude that billions of people are a bunch of sword waving, thieving, religious terrorists...

But that picture is far from reality when compared to my experiences with Muslims...

My experiences are proof that your conclusion is invalid and untrue. Because if your claim that Muslims are untrustworthy was true, than my experiences would have been the same as yours... and they weren't

[WinePusher]

I voted for the McCain Palin ticket in 2008 because I watched Fox news and their perception of Obama rather than what he actually was running for. All I heard about all day was his pastor and Bill Ayers.

We don't need to constantly hear your post conversion experiences Darias about how you became an enlightened liberal and how you threw off the shackles of fundamentalism and conservatism that you previously clung to. Put up an argument, and leave it at that, as no one is interested in you citing events which lead to you becoming a liberal/liberal 'christian' in an attempt to bolster your standing. And going off your slanted, embellished and inflated statement which I bolded it appears that you never watched Fox News, rather you watched and read your favorite liberal commentators on Fox News. If you had actually watched Fox you would have seen that they covered the Obama Campaign in the same way other news outlets did.

She is a celebrity now. She has all these TV shows and stuff..

"And Stuff..." . It appears you can't be specific or name anything other than a reality television show that disqualifies her from the Presidency. Let's face it, you don't support Sarah Palin and that's fine. I don't support half of the elected class residing in Washington D.C at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't engage in the sleight of hand politics you've demonstrated here. Let's look at what you've done: capitalize on the "mis-speak" of a politician you don't like, perpetuate, bloviate and expand it and use it as a weapon to embarass and make this politician look stupid. This allows you to avoid debating actual policy issues which make up the basis for why you don't support the candidate. Funny how people like you can never challenge Palin on her political stances and policy intiatives, people like you can only attack her and dwell so heavily on insignificant points.

What she said about Paul Revere wasn't a gaff or, a mis-speak, it was outright making stuff up "I don't know"

It appears you don't know what the useage of the term "gaff" in modern political terms means.

Obama's gaff about 57 states doesn't erase what Sara Palin did or said.

This trend seems to be becoming popular in your posts in this thread. I'll try to make it clear and concise for you: nobody said it does other than you, and do not attempt to put words into the mouths of your opponent.

It was clearly a gaff --- a rare sight coming from Obama. Palin was just making stuff up and denied it... that's the difference.

Seems like you missed my link, would you care to look at it so you can avoid making blanketed statements like the bolded one above?

She quit her governor job early and she hasn't declared she is running yet --- because that would mean all her reality shows would have to stop...

Seems like you're the one "making up stuff." Demonstrate, rather than blindly assert, how Sarah Palin's reality shows are entirely contingent upon her future political declarations. Unfortunately you will not be able to because her reality show is not being renewed for another season. So please, you are in no place to pass judgement upon another person whom you claim is "making up stuff" counter to the facts when you have done the exact same thing here. Do some research before you post, do not just claim anything you want and "make up stuff" and wait for you posts for be fact checked by other posters.

[Lux]

Moderator Comment

The argument presented and which I take opposition to is baseless and unfounded in fact, in tradition, in experience and in rhetoric. I opposed the argument, not the person - while my opponent accused me personally of irrational unadult logic.

Quote...
"I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally."
end quote

I can accept that statement as it is part of the conversation. Adult conversation. Give and take. Fact vs. empty opinion and conjecture.

Is my opponent so incapable of defending their position that they must call in the thought police to do it for them?

If warnings concerning the content of debate are to be issued, it would serve as an example of fairness to all if BOTH sides in the contest were treated equally and addressed equally. I am waiting to see that here.

Personally I believe it to be a waste of the moderator's time when he/she has to salve the feelings of a participant who feels they have to run home to mommy when they dislike the direction a debate is taking.

Challenges or questions regarding moderator action should be made by PM to any admin or mod, not in public threads.


Please review the Rules.






______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[micatala]

I don't know what country you went to or what interactions you had with the people there, but just because such interactions may have gone sour, it doesn't mean that all Muslims are potential time-bombs who hate this country and want to kill people -- I don't know how any adult could come to that conclusion rationally.

*********




There are countless inconvenient realities like this -- all of which make statements like "they're honestly untrustworthy" look really retarded. Sorry, if that challenges your world view but stereotypes are too easily defeated with facts.

Moderator Comment


Pejorative language like the examples bolded above should be avoided.



Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[Choir Loft]

The Muslims I've met and studied with are all Americans, and those are the Muslims we are talking about in regards to Cain's cabinet choices. We aren't talking about Afghani warlords, Saudi Arabian sheiks, and Yemeni tribesmen...

We are talking about naturalized and American born Muslims in the U.S.

Just because you had negative experiences with various Muslims in other countries (and who knows how much of that negative reaction came from your own mistrust of Muslims to begin with) it doesn't mean you can logically apply those feelings towards all Muslims everywhere, especially Americans.

You accused me when you knew nothing of my background. Now you know a little and have not decreased your disrespect of what I have learned, where I have been, what disability I now suffer because of it....BUT WHAT TRUTH I AM continuing to attempt to pass on to all readers you also disallow.

MY OWN mistrust came from observation and acute experience. When I first arrived in the middle east I had no preconceptions. None whatsoever. When I left I had many foundational experiences from which to draw an opinion and from which to warn others. Big difference.

Back to your statement above; apparently you trust AMERICAN muslims more than those of any other country. American muslims are somehow different?

NO DIFFERENT.

He (Allah) will vex a great nation (America?) with a foolish people. He will take the things that are weak to confound the things that are mighty, and the base things of the world, and the things which are despised, hath God chosen.
MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN

those who studied the religion (Islam) should not allow our religion to be misrepresented to fit into a scheme that wants to paint the religion of Islam as non-violent. Islam is not non-violent.
MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN

Read it again, please.
ISLAM IS NOT NON-VIOLENT

regarding PARK 51 - the mosque at Ground Zero:
Raymond Ibrahim, a former associate director of the Middle East Forum, said the project and name were not "a gesture of peace and interfaith dialogue" but were "allusive of Islamic conquest and consolidation" and that Americans should realize that mosques are not "Muslim counterparts to Christian churches" but rather, "are symbols of domination and centers of radicalization."

"There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is."
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf (Imam of Park 51)

When I say "Never trust", I mean "Never".