"One Nation, Under God"

[SimpleMind]

Every morning I am told, in a PUBIC SCHOOL, to stand up and say that I live in a country under a God in which I do not believe. I find it offensive, and definitely toeing the line between Church and state.
For debate: Should "under God"be kept in the Pledge, and why do you think it was added in the first place in the 1950s?

[Cathar1950]

"One Nation, Under God"

Which God? Sometimes I think it's Shiva...

“Detail of your porn have been e-mailed to the FBI” along with my IP address.
Is this some kind of ad from danasoft.com?
I am sure details of my porn will bore the pants off anyone.

[Salt Agent]

Greetings Beto,

"Under the gods" can imply that more than one exist. It doesn't matter how you interpret it... it can be interpreted that way, and it would violate some personal convictions in the same way that "Under God" does.

What about the pledge, Salt Agent? Do you remain unconvinced that "Under God" violates the "religious freedom" of some people? Like I mention in post 24 it's not only atheists that resent having their patriotism questioned over a pledge with religious implications that violates their personal convictions. You must not presume everyone interprets, or should interpret, the pledge like you do.

What about the pledge, Salt Agent? Do you remain unconvinced that "Under God" violates the "religious freedom" of some people?. I'm not denying that atheists don't believe in God.
You are missing the point. It would violate religious freedom if everyone were forced to say it, but they're not. You don't have to say the pledge- that my friend is the religious freedom being demonstrated of one nation under God. Just because a nation recognizes one God, does not in any way mean or imply that that country doesn't allow freedom of religion.
I don't know how much more freedom of religion you expect. More people are recently concerned about offending some Muslims over the word Christmas.

We must live in different worlds. You're telling me that someone who refuses to say the pledge for being an atheist won't be denied opportunities and labeled "unpatriotic"? Of course I'm not saying people have guns held against their heads. Obama had to take s*** because he wouldn't wear a frickin' flag in his lapel, never mind refusing to say the pledge.

Christians for centuries have had to make choices based on principles --if they don't like the local schools teaching sex ed in second grade, or homosexuality, or evolution, they make sacrifices--either pay for expensive private school, or homeschool.

So what opportunities are denied because they don't say the pledge? Joining the Boy-Scouts, they already believe in God anyway, so I don't think that is a big issue. Running for Congress?? There are probably more atheists in Congress and the Senate than Christians. Running for President??? Not a problem, look at Mitt Romney. Getting a driver's license? Voting? Joining the Army? Getting welfare??? Buying property??? Owning a business??? Becoming a University professor.??? Talk about religious descrimination??

Salt Agent wrote:
The last I heard, atheists enjoy the same freedom to worship or not, that others enjoy, as well as those benefits and liberties that many other countries don't have, particularly the atheist ones.


You're completely missing the point of the thread. The issue isn't whether or not people enjoy the freedom to worship or to not worship. The issue is about having a pledge of allegiance with religious implications that not everyone agrees with, in such a way that atheists and some theists can't enjoy the satisfaction of pledging their allegiance to their nation without betraying their principles in the process.

If their principles are so strong, then just stand up for your principles, and take some heat, like Christians do, for what you believe. This goes back to the issue of the double standard of those who are offended by the Judeo-Christian elements of the American culture, but the conveniences and liberties of living in the US far outweigh living in an atheist culture in Cuba, or Central Europe. Forget Communist Russia in the 50's. Why not move to Cuba now, or the Czech Republic? Yeah, I know the roads are not as nice and the postal service is not so efficient, and they don't have Wal-Marts and the medical care has a lot to be desired.


I fully understand the point of the thread, the pledge. If the notion of one nation under God bothers you, just don't say the pledge.

If you feel so persecuted and oppressed that you can't join the Military because you don't say the pledge, then move to Holland. It is very clean, the people are very courteous and pleasant, herione is legal, the chocolate is some of the best inthe world and everyone speaks English already.

I know, Beto, that taking a stand for your principles, sometimes means being ridiculed, or making a sacrifice, and going against the tide of Lemmings, but that is why it never makes sense when anyone says Christianity is a crutch.


With respect,

Salt Agent

[Beto]

I'm not denying that atheists don't believe in God.

I never said you did.

You are missing the point. It would violate religious freedom if everyone were forced to say it, but they're not. You don't have to say the pledge- that my friend is the religious freedom being demonstrated of one nation under God. Just because a nation recognizes one God, does not in any way mean or imply that that country doesn't allow freedom of religion.

"Religious freedom" isn't "freedom of religion". I thought this was clear by now. Everyone has a right to have a pledge that symbolizes their patriotism without violating their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Some people have multiple gods, some have none, and right now they don't have the right to feel as patriotic as the others.

If the notion of one nation under God bothers you, just don't say the pledge.

This seems very selfish to me.

I don't know how much more freedom of religion you expect. More people are recently concerned about offending some Muslims over the word Christmas.

Don't get me started on Christmas.

If their principles are so strong, then just stand up for your principles, and take some heat, like Christians do, for what you believe.

"Take some heat"... people used to "take heat" on top of a pile of wood, when standing up for their principles, so please drop the victim act.

The pledge is about patriotism, no other implication is warranted.

If you feel so persecuted and oppressed that you can't join the Military because you don't say the pledge, then move to Holland.

"Then move to Holland"?... This deserves no comment. And where did I mention the military? Is that all that "patriotism" means to you?

It is very clean, the people are very courteous and pleasant,

That's nice.

herione is legal,

If you mean heroin, it's not legal. Drugs aren't "legal" in Holland. Soft drugs are controlled substances.

the chocolate is some of the best inthe world and everyone speaks English already.

I'll take your word for it.

With respect,

Salt Agent

I don't think you're respecting many of your countrymen, by not acknowledging their right to feel as patriotic as everyone else.

[Salt Agent]

Hello Beto,

"Religious freedom" isn't "freedom of religion". I thought this was clear by now. Everyone has a right to have a pledge that symbolizes their patriotism without violating their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Some people have multiple gods, some have none, and right now they don't have the right to feel as patriotic as the others.

Everyone has a right to have a pledge that symbolizes their patriotism without violating their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Really??

According to whom??? In what counry?? This is flawed at several levels.

This would mean the Radical Muslims have a pledge, but they can "ethically lie" to infidels -Christians and Jews-- according to the Koran, so that would be a problem. The Jews would have a Pledge, and the Neo-Nazis would have a Pledge, and the atheists, and the Christians, and the Hindu's, and the Mormons, and on it goes. How much time would it take to say twenty pledges, and would that be enough.

More importantly, it doesn't say anywhere in the constitution or Declaration of Independence that everyone has that right.

I respect your opinion to think that however, as well as your right to not believe in God,and anything else.

You seem to keep dodging the question and throwing out red herrings. What are three to six of these liberties and priviledges you say you are being denied??

I mentioned eight to ten of the most fundamental rights/benefits that people from all over the world come to the US for, or that sets the US apart from most every other country in the world.

You seem so bitter and angry at Christians, or that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. I understand you don't believe in those. Just don't say the pledge, or just say you don't agree with it.

Nor is that selfish, to simply say that if you are offended then don't say the pledge. That, my friend is your right. If I am offended by something, whether the adult book store across from the daycare, or the chain retailer that exploits illegal aliens, I can either not participate, or I can actively demonstrate, or boycott, or organize a petition, or contact your local congressman or woman. It is no more selfish than it is selfish to say that if I don't like Halloween, don't celebrate it. If you celebrate Halloween, and I prefer to celebrate Martin Luther day, fine, it doesn't have anything to do with either of us being selfish.

As I mentioned earlier, the jehovah's witnesses cult group doesn't say the pledge, but it doesn't keep them from voting, or owning businesses or practicing their freedom of religion.

By your same logic, it is selfish to say that if someone doesn't want to put on a shirt, they can't be served in a restaurant, or if they aren't willing to have their photo taken, then they can't get a driver's license. It is not selfish, it is the reality that liberties and rights come with responsibilities and conditions. If you don't like the club rules, don't join the club, or buy the club and change the rules.

Most atheists I know realize that Christians and atheists alike have principles, and that sometimes it means making a choice between convenience and principle. Unfortunately, many who claim to be Christians sacrifice these principles for convenience and entertainment.


Regards,

SA

[Negachrist]

"One Nation, Under God"

Which God? Sometimes I think it's Shiva...

“Detail of your porn have been e-mailed to the FBI” along with my IP address.
Is this some kind of ad from danasoft.com?
I am sure details of my porn will bore the pants off anyone.

No, it's a line I thought up. The Danasoft thingy just shows you the details of your own internet and computer set-up, the 3rd line is randomly chosen each time from ones I added myself:

"Remember: You are NOT anonymous!" - Because trolls often forget.
"You will be baked, and then there will be cake." - A quote from Portal.
"Details of your porn have been e-mailed to the FBI" - Supposed to be a joke.
"I can sum it all up in 3 words: Evolution is a lie" - A quote from FSTDT.
"You Spoony Bard!" - A quote from Final Fantasy IV.
"How I mine for fish?" - A quote from VGCats.com
"Nobody's gonna put me in a balloon again!" - A quote from Killer Klowns from Outer Space.
And introducing: "One Nation, Under... Shiva?"

[Beto]

Everyone has a right to have a pledge that symbolizes their patriotism without violating their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Really??

According to whom??? icon_confused2 In what counry?? icon_confused2 This is flawed at several levels.

According to me and according to your own constitution, for what that's worth to you.

This would mean the Radical Muslims have a pledge, but they can "ethically lie" to infidels -Christians and Jews-- according to the Koran, so that would be a problem. d'oh! The Jews would have a Pledge, and the Neo-Nazis would have a Pledge, and the atheists, and the Christians, and the Hindu's, and the Mormons, and on it goes. How much time would it take to say twenty pledges, and would that be enough.

Or the pledge could be just about swearing "allegiance" to your country and keep religion out, which is what I've been saying all along, in case you didn't understand.

More importantly, it doesn't say anywhere in the constitution or Declaration of Independence that everyone has that right.

A bunch of your own federal judges disagree with you.

I respect your opinion to think that however, as well as your right to not believe in God,and anything else.

No, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't mind taking out "Under God".

You seem to keep dodging the question and throwing out red herrings.

You're the one constantly referring to "freedom of religion" as if it was the issue at hand.

What are three to six of these liberties and priviledges you say you are being denied??

Talk about red herring.

I mentioned eight to ten of the most fundamental rights/benefits that people from all over the world come to the US for, or that sets the US apart from most every other country in the world.

And another one.

You seem so bitter and angry at Christians,

I don't rely on appeals to emotion to support my case, and it's dishonest of you to suggest that to the readers.

or that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

It's your country, not mine.

I understand you don't believe in those. Just don't say the pledge, or just say you don't agree with it.

Nor is that selfish, to simply say that if you are offended then don't say the pledge.

Anyone with a dictionary can see whether or not the word applies.

That, my friend is your right.

Much obliged.

If I am offended by something, whether the adult book store across from the daycare, or the chain retailer that exploits illegal aliens, I can either not participate, or I can actively demonstrate, or boycott, or organize a petition, or contact your local congressman or woman.

It is no more selfish than it is selfish to say that if I don't like Halloween, don't celebrate it.

If you celebrate Halloween, and I prefer to celebrate Martin Luther day, fine, it doesn't have anything to do with either of us being selfish.

Unbelievable... And you accuse me of throwing out red herrings?

As I mentioned earlier, the jehovah's witnesses cult group doesn't say the pledge, but it doesn't keep them from voting, or owning businesses or practicing their freedom of religion.

So what? "Let's not change something that's wrong because people can live with it"?

By your same logic, it is selfish to say that if someone doesn't want to put on a shirt, they can't be served in a restaurant, or if they aren't willing to have their photo taken, then they can't get a driver's license. It is not selfish, it is the reality that liberties and rights come with responsibilities and conditions. If you don't like the club rules, don't join the club, or buy the club and change the rules. Wink

Most atheists I know realize that Christians and atheists alike have principles, and that sometimes it means making a choice between convenience and principle.

Unfortunately, many who claim to be Christians sacrifice these principles for convenience and entertainment.

Why are you trying to "win" a debate over the "pledge of allegiance", arguing on how much "religious freedom" your country has? Don't you know this is what a red herring is?

[Salt Agent]

The name of the one god can be worked around in way or another, but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. In the same way, no self-respecting atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

This is what I mean. You make blanket statements which are not true, and don't even try to give a source or prove your bogus charge. The Mormons are enjoying great religious freedom, the atheists are, the Muslims are, [the US Government even promotes a Muslim holiday on Federal stamps] the Christians are, the Wiccans are, the Jehovah's Witness are, the Hindus are.

How about just citing which religious groups are denied religious freedom.

You also say everyone has a right to their own pledge???

OK, that is your opinion, fine, but it's not in the Constitution, nor the Declaration of Independence.

Then you cite some judges who disagree. Maybe those are the same judges who decide that life begins when the whole body is out of the womb or that marriage should be between two men. Doesn't make it true.

but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. ????

I don't expect that you should be very familiar with theology or scripture, but here, you either don't know the pledge, or you clearly don't know the first commandment. The first commandment is not in the pledge, nor is the pledge in the first commandment.

Nor are they even connected. A Christian who says the pledge of Allegiance is not "having other gods before me [Yahweh].

Then in post 24, you are the one alledging that by not saying the pledge someone may be "labeled" unpatriotic, or denied some priviledges. I simply asked you to list specifically which priviledges are being denied.
You don't address it. Then instead of listing what specific priviledges are being denied, you say I was throwing out a red herring.

It goes directly to the point of the thread. Saying the pledge of Allegiance. So if it offends an atheist, or Jehovah's witness, don't say it. Nobody is forced to say it. You don't seem to understand that.

It is not a requirement for buying real estate, getting a loan, starting a business, getting a driver's license, getting married, being patriotic, getting hired by a University, LOL , or being a politician, or adopting children.

Then, the best you can do is say it is selfish of me???? How about proving how that is selfish any more than the manager of a restaurant says that if customers want to be served, then he must have a shirt.

If the rule offends you, don't eat there. It doesn't make the manager of the restaurant selfish.
If it were required for very basic rights, and people were forced to say the pledge or denied entrance to state universities, or the Postal service, or denied a bank account, then you might have a point.

If saying the apostles creed bother's you, -then by all means, dude, don't violate your personal convictions... Just don't say it.

Then you say it's not your country. OK, so maybe your country has more religious freedom, or some generic atheist pledge. What's the problem?? If you want to come to the states, you're welcome.
People by the millions from all walks of life, races and religions want to move to the states because the opportunities coupled with the religious freedom are far greater than most countries.

As I mentioned before. I lived in Russia, and I now live in Central europe where I see all the "glorious benefits" you alude to of a government that doesn't believe in God.



cordially,
Salt Agent

[Goat]

The name of the one god can be worked around in way or another, but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. In the same way, no self-respecting atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

This is what I mean. You make blanket statements which are not true, and don't even try to give a source or prove your bogus charge. The Mormons are enjoying great religious freedom, the atheists are, the Muslims are, [the US Government even promotes a Muslim holiday on Federal stamps] the Christians are, the Wiccans are, the Jehovah's Witness are, the Hindus are.

How about just citing which religious groups are denied religious freedom.

You also say everyone has a right to their own pledge???

OK, that is your opinion, fine, but it's not in the Constitution, nor the Declaration of Independence.

Then you cite some judges who disagree. Maybe those are the same judges who decide that life begins when the whole body is out of the womb or that marriage should be between two men. Doesn't make it true.

but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. ????

I don't expect that you should be very familiar with theology or scripture, but here, you either don't know the pledge, or you clearly don't know the first commandment. The first commandment is not in the pledge, nor is the pledge in the first commandment.

Nor are they even connected. A Christian who says the pledge of Allegiance is not "having other gods before me [Yahweh].

Then in post 24, you are the one alledging that by not saying the pledge someone may be "labeled" unpatriotic, or denied some priviledges. I simply asked you to list specifically which priviledges are being denied.
You don't address it. Then instead of listing what specific priviledges are being denied, you say I was throwing out a red herring.

It goes directly to the point of the thread. Saying the pledge of Allegiance. So if it offends an atheist, or Jehovah's witness, don't say it. Nobody is forced to say it. You don't seem to understand that.

It is not a requirement for buying real estate, getting a loan, starting a business, getting a driver's license, getting married, being patriotic, getting hired by a University, LOL , or being a politician, or adopting children.

Then, the best you can do is say it is selfish of me???? How about proving how that is selfish any more than the manager of a restaurant says that if customers want to be served, then he must have a shirt.

If the rule offends you, don't eat there. It doesn't make the manager of the restaurant selfish.
If it were required for very basic rights, and people were forced to say the pledge or denied entrance to state universities, or the Postal service, or denied a bank account, then you might have a point.

If saying the apostles creed bother's you, -then by all means, dude, don't violate your personal convictions... Just don't say it.

Then you say it's not your country. OK, so maybe your country has more religious freedom, or some generic atheist pledge. What's the problem?? If you want to come to the states, you're welcome.
People by the millions from all walks of life, races and religions want to move to the states because the opportunities coupled with the religious freedom are far greater than most countries.

As I mentioned before. I lived in Russia, and I now live in Central Europe where I see all the "glorious benefits" you alude to of a government that doesn't believe in God.



cordially,
Salt Agent

Have you ever heard of 'peer pressure'. Those people who refuse to confirm are harassed. One girl, a Jehovah Witness whose religious belief was that she should not salute to the flag, was told she should be ashamed of herself, and she should go home, by her teacher.

[Beto]

This is what I mean. You make blanket statements which are not true, and don't even try to give a source or prove your bogus charge.

What's "bogus" is the logic you employ in your understanding of "religious freedom", but that's irrelevant to the discussion. And you have the temerity of accusing me of throwing around red herrings. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

The Mormons are enjoying great religious freedom, the atheists are, the Muslims are, [the US Government even promotes a Muslim holiday on Federal stamps] the Christians are, the Wiccans are, the Jehovah's Witness are, the Hindus are.

Again... read carefully... the issue at hand is the pledge of allegiance, and how patriotism is unwarrantedly bound to religion. I'll say this every time you bring up "religious freedom", so you can take that herring and... do whatever you want with it.

You also say everyone has a right to their own pledge???

No... again... and again... the pledge should abstain from religious connotation and be just about patriotism, as it originally was.

OK, that is your opinion, fine, but it's not in the Constitution, nor the Declaration of Independence.

It's not my opinion.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

This is the original version, and "Under God" was added under a climate of fear over "atheistic communism", remaining unconstitutional to this day, for the simple reason that under the constitution, the state must remain neutral when it comes to the relationship between man and religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ... "

The insertion of "Under God" is clearly in violation of the intended neutrality of the constitution.

Then you cite some judges who disagree. icon_confused2 Maybe those are the same judges who decide that life begins when the whole body is out of the womb Think or that marriage should be between two men. Doesn't make it true.

You should try being more subtle when planting your straw men.

I don't expect that you should be very familiar with theology or scripture, but here, you either don't know the pledge, or you clearly don't know the first commandment. icon_confused2 The first commandment is not in the pledge, nor is the pledge in the first commandment.

Nor are they even connected. A Christian who says the pledge of Allegiance is not "having other gods before me [Yahweh].

Try and actually read what I write. I was referring to a pledge like "Under Vishnu, Brahma and Kali", for instance, and how Christians would disapprove such a pledge.

[Salt Agent]

[quote="SimpleMind"]Every morning I am told, in a PUBIC SCHOOL, to stand up and say that I live in a country under a God in which I do not believe. I find it offensive, and definitely toeing the line between Church and state.
For debate: Should "under God"be kept in the Pledge, and why do you think it was added in the first place in the 1950s?
quote]

Greetings, SM,

I think I understand what you mean but I am not sure.

I hear you saying that you object to the pledge because of the fact that
1.) You don't believe in God, and
2.) You think that acknowledging the Christian heritage of our nation is toeing the line between church and state.??


I need to apologizet to Beto. I came across too strong. I think we are deadlocked. He said it is not his country, so I don't know if he means he lives somewhere else or that he is not a US Citizen.

I respect your right to believe in God or not believe in God. The amazing thing about the constitution is that while the writers clearly acknowledged one God, - not Shiva- or Vishnu, or Allah -- they clearly wanted to make sure that religious liberty was protected.


The point was not to take all religion out of the government-- but rather to not have the government impose a specific religion to be the state church, like the Anglican Church in England, which they rejected, and was why many of the first pilgrims came- to flee religious persecution in Europe.

I think we agree that religious freedom means that the Muslim and the Buddhist and the Christian, and the atheist, and the Jehovah's Witness can practice their religion and all have the same basic liberties, to vote, to buy/own property, to get a driver's license, to have the same access to public education, or to attend a private school of their religious beliefs, or to home school, to run for public office, to keep and bear arms, and so on.

My point about Beto before, possibly not living in the US is that he claims that those who don't say the pledge are denied liberties. Maybe being in the Boy scouts, because they believe in God, but it doesn't keep one from voting, or joining the military or being patriotic, or being proud of America nor has he even given us any examples of these rights that are denied.

If you don't agree with the pledge because of the phrase about one nation under God, by all means don't say the pledge. It isn't like if you refuse, you will put on some list and then denied entrance to a liberal university, or there will be a red flag by your SAT scores.

As you have seen by now, students get teased because of the brand of shoes they wear, K-Mart jeans, or some off-brand, and to say that this is what happens to Jehovah's witnesses who also don't say the pledge is well, really, really a moot point. What about kids who play in the band.???

Have you ever heard any jokes about band geeks???
What about just plain nerds? kids who dress funny, or whose parents are poor?
What about dumb jocks??? Have you ever heard of anyone being teased or "labeled" because they were the star of the football team but were in remedial math.???
What about a Christian girl or guy who is in the university and gets heckled publicly by the professor because they refuse to believe frog to professor Darwinian Evolution. Do you think the student who refuses to say the pledge has it any worse than that?

I seriously doubt whether Goat or Beto or Achilles or Confused are really too concerned about what others think regarding their deep beliefs. Most of the intelligent atheists I know are pretty secure in their atheism... Some aren't and they end up becoming Christians. hehehe. The case can be made for the Christians as well. Some of them end up becoming atheists or Jews.

Here's another way to look at it. So, say some one gives you some grief about not "being patriotic". Ask them what being patriotic means. Tons of people of all different walks of life have left countries, and their families and culture to come to America because no other country offers more religious freedom along with so many other benefits and opportunities, lower taxes, great education, good medical care, opportunities to start a business, etc, other than Canada.

So ask yourself..."What's the worst that will happen if you don't say the pledge?" You may have someone say you're an atheist or Jehovah's witness. So, aren't you that already.

Then ask yourself the alternative??? What other country could I live in that is atheist/communist, and are the benefits of living there worth more than all the opportunities and advantages of living in the states.

So the part about "Under God" was added in the 50's to counter against the atheism of the Cold War and Russia. The bottom line is that the constutition doesn't say anything about separation of church and state, but you still have religious liberty to practice whatever religion you want. Say the pledge if the peer pressure is too great. If if isn't, then don't say the pledge.

If you were a Christian, then I would say you were lying to pledge something you don't believe. No offense intended, but to an atheist, they don't believe the Bible anyway, so they already don't accept the Bible as their final authority, right.

Lastly, I would like to remind you that saying the pledge is not saying reciting the Apostles' Creed, nor does it mean that I am saying reciting the Five Points of Calvinism-- if it did, I wouldn't recite the pledge either. You are not saying that you are an Evangelical Christian who believes in the Trinity, and the Calendar Day Creation. It isn't saying that you accept Christ as the only saviour for your sins, it is simply acknowledging that our country was founded on the Judeo-Christian God. It doesn't even mean that the US is a Christian nation today. If it said that explicitly, I wouldn't agree with that, and therefore, I wouldn't say the pledge.

When it's all said and done, you may likely still get more ridicule from people for the kind of glasses you wear, or your brand of jeans than not saying the pledge. [That says something about our priorities]

Cordially,


Salt Agent.