Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights

[micatala]

I offer this thread as a Christian who supports gay rights as an admittedly forward challenge to my brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Acts Ch. 14 and 15, Luke describes James and the other Apostles discussions which led them to exempt Gentiles from well over 99% of the Law of Moses. The main reason they did so was to avoid putting an excessive burden on Gentiles. Implicit in their decision was the issue that expecting everyone to follow these traditional rules, rules that many saw as outdated, would be a drag on the new movement.

Today, we see polls like this one that indicate many young people leaving the church or the faith because of the negative attitude displayed by many religious people towards gays and lesbians.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... ign=buffer


1) Would it not make sense for Christians to lay aside anti-gay rhetoric, including quoting of Biblical verses that are claimed to condemn homosexuality, if for no other reason than it is counter-productive to evangelism?

2) Does not Jesus' own ministry, and the actions of the Apostles as described in Acts 15 give ample precedent for laying aside Biblical verses that seem to allude to homosexuality?


I will note that Christianity has by and large already set aside many precepts now seen to be archaic, including the idea that women should never speak in church, and that we should simply accept any and all governments as instituted by God and worthy of our obedience. The Declaration of Independence, in particular, repudiates this notion, outlined by Paul in his letters.

I will note that Jesus is quoted in the gospels as explicitly laying aside aspects of the law, and that he was criticized by many of his fellow believers, especially those who were arguably most religious, for doing so.

I will point out that the faith of those conservative believers rather quickly became a small minority as compared to Christianity.


It really comes down to this:

3) Is non-acceptance of homosexuality so central to Christianity that Christians should cling to traditional notions against homosexuality, or can we lay those aside as tangential to the central message of the gospel?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 293 by Clownboat]


Hello Danmark and Clownboat,

This is an answer to posts #292 and #293.

The two of you told me that we are on a debate site where “preaching� (applying God’s truth during the discussion and advising accordingly) is against the rules. But like a flash of lightning, I remembered the title of this discussion: “Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights.� So if I’m to stay with the title as for what we Christians aught to do, I cannot but express my points by speaking my native Christian language! Gotcha!!! Ha ha ha ha!

For you, Danmark,

You said, “It is that spirit of Christ and the Gospel that empowers us to let go of the homophobic prejudices of our youth, our traditions, our bigotry, and embrace our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as equal partners in the family of man.�

Let’s change this sentence a little. Let’s say, “...and embrace our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as equal candidates for the delivering power of the gospel.�

It is the job of the church never to be bound by prejudices of any kind including homophobia. Jesus tells us, “they that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.� We were all born with the sickness of sin. The gospel is thus available to everyone- bar none for the delivering power of Christ from the sickness of sin. That of course includes gays and lesbians.

As the church of Jesus Christ is ready to accept anyone-bar none-including homosexuals for deliverance and reconciliation, so must all that go to Christ including homosexuals go to Him on His terms- bar none. What God says is sin is sin that must be forsaken. Let no one therefore restrain himself from the delivering power of Christ blaming others for phobias against them.

For you, Clownboat,

If this forum is for debates, then couldn’t you have simply answered my question about children under their parents to stay on the point I tried to illustrate instead of sidetracking the issue by talking about Big Foot and aliens? May Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny join hands to chase you!

Speaking about evidence, the Bible plainly points out that we are all surrounded by more than sufficient evidence pointing to the reality of God and that we are very well convinced of His authority. Please be careful. Unbelief toward God is more of a product of rejection of whats revealed than a product of doubt.

You correctly said that we should examine everything carefully and hold on to what’s good. Thank you. But worldview strongly affects how we examine things and what we call “good.� Please be careful. Opposing world views have opposing views of good and evil.

Thanks for wanting to debate me. I accept the challenge that would make you and me stronger. Thanks for telling me that you read the Bible from cover to cover and attended Christian school! Congratulations! You have equipped yourself well!

You expressed the seriousness of the Christian life you lived, that you are now freed from religious beliefs, and that you are a better and more loving person. OK. But I think there are some things that need a little bit of explanation:

Would you count yourself having gained greater freedom and happiness after severing a relationship with a very best friend? I’m talking about a friend that you really appreciated. If the life you left did not produce the friendship relationship I described above with your Savior, you never knew Him despite all of the religion and the study. It appears that religious legalism was the thing that kept you in “holy� bondage that wore you out and hindered you from being a more loving person. As RAID kills cockroaches, so does legalism kills faith dead! You know the dangers of religion without faith. Jesus hates it.

A right relation with Jesus (not mere religion) is a relationship of friendship that by nature frees you from legalistic bondage the same way you would be freed from crushing monetary debt. I say this from personal experience. Because He rose again, your relationship with Him elevates your understanding to that of the supernatural realm. Scripture you know would then take on a much deeper meaning above our natural understanding. Please don’t tell me that you already been there because if you had you wouldn’t have burned yourself out and gave up.

If atheism has not its own “gospel,� then why are people drawn to it?

You are a loving person for what purpose? Where did you get the ability? How would you or I know that we have any purpose in life without a “God-concept?� Would you prefer pretending there is no concept of the God that’s supplying your breath and miss out on your unique purpose for which you have biblically equipped yourself? I don’t think so.

God has never meant for you or anyone to be driven by needless scare tactics. But I surely wish that someone would use scare tactics on me if his warnings were against danger that’s real. Your relationship with your best friend is not based on scare.

Are good and evil relative terms? Are you saying that an act deemed evil in America, may not be considered evil in another culture? OK. If someone steals from you and kills you here in America, would that be counted as good in another country? If so, what would you think of that country?

You already know that one would never allow himself to give up a very good thing because of a false impression due to error in understanding. I also remind myself that Jesus is not like “super-duper religious� people. Please don’t miss out on your unique God-given potential that awaits your development.

You guys are always prayed for with the greatest of hope.


Take care,
Earl

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 309 by Erexsaur]

Would you count yourself having gained greater freedom and happiness after severing a relationship with a very best friend? I’m talking about a friend that you really appreciated. If the life you left did not produce the friendship relationship I described above with your Savior, you never knew Him despite all of the religion and the study. It appears that religious legalism was the thing that kept you in “holy� bondage that wore you out and hindered you from being a more loving person. As RAID kills cockroaches, so does legalism kills faith dead! You know the dangers of religion without faith. Jesus hates it.

If the friend turns out to be a sociopath and a narcissist you would gain greater freedom and happiness. Would you maintain a close relationship with someone who turns out to be a sociopath and a narcissist?

[arian]

I won't be responding to the disrespectful and uncivil content in your post. I'll simply address the few debate-related points you raised (remember, this is called 'Christian reasons to support gay rights,' not 'bash LGBT people').

Are you a Christian?

The peace sign has nothing to do with an upside-down cross. It comes from the olive branch, a symbol of peace in ancient Greek religion. It's not an anti-Christian symbol at all.

https://www.google.com/search?q=peace+s ... 5&dpr=1.65

I don't see the olive branch?

I don't recall mentioning my gender or sexual orientation on this thread.

You said you were queer.

That's not what the empirical data suggest:

A 2002 study: http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb02/newdata.aspx

More recent data: http://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/youth.htm

Also, bigotry and discrimination can cause depression. The kind of hatred of LGBT people you've shown in the past few posts contributes to higher rates of depression and suicide among queer people, especially youth. While it's debatable if the Bible condemns homosexuality, it certainly does not call for you to hate people with homosexual orientations. Please reconsider your hate: it doesn't align with your beliefs and it really hurts other people.

I don't hate the person, It's the sin is what it is. Gays I've know knew exactly where I stand, and as long as we had respect for our humanity, we were cool. Should they ask me what I feel about homosexuality, I point to them the Bible, which I understand in debate it is worthless. But funny every homosexual understood it and didn't argue with me. I was still cool though, but here I go with testimonials again without evidence, sorry.

Heterosexuals don't party on the weekends? And who is demanding the removal of "mother" and "father?" Please provide evidence.

Words, books are not considered realiable evidence on this forum any longer since they passed the homosexual marriage laws, and it's all I could give you, typed out words, letters copied from claimed sources, some bronze aged book quotes that contain talking donkeys, considered on this Forum by the Moderators as a book on fairytales.

Any other proof would be we meet in San Diego downtown 3rd street and grape. (or general area, Balboa Park) which you could just as easily deny. Anyone could, anything including the wall that's front of their nose. Heck, I could too.

Michelle Robinson Obama is not transgender; that's nothing more than a ridiculous right-wing conspiracy theory. Even if she were trans, however, that would make her no less of a woman.

A man with a penis who played College football you can claim to be a woman and that's legit because you say so, but I can't claim the Bible as legit. OK then. As I said, this Forum that I loved has become;

[center]"Atheists Debating Christianity & Religion".
Civil. Intelligent. Thoughtful. Challenging unless you are a Christian
then its Rude. Stupid. Mindless. Insulting.
and should you come on this Forum as a Christian,
your very presence warrants a Warning.[/center]

Intentionally misgendering a transgender person is very hateful, offensive, and hurtful. Please don't do this. Would your god of love want you to show this kind of hate to a person he created?

So miss gendering a huge 6'2" rough and tough looking hairy-chested guy wearing a ballerina dress with ballerina shoes pushing a baby carriage with a 2 foot 50lb. dildo parading through Balboa Park San Diego front of children would be very hateful?

Oh boy, good thing I didn't say anything, because even with that cute little outfit and them shoes he looked, .. oops, I mean she looked like a man. Actually I believe he, .. I mean she, .. or is it proper to say it wanted to look like a man, no fake tits or anything, no wig, just a little lipstick who looked very much like a plain old big hairy man wearing a ballerina outfit. So how would I greet such a thing (I say thing because I don't want to miss gender the thing), with a "Hello madam, .. or hello sir"?

Now most of the gays in my apartment and next door apartments dressed real nice, real professional in suits, trimmed beards and everything. I've seen them many times before and even said hi to them, until one day I pulled up to my apartments and there they were, beard and all, French kissing with one leaning the other on a car. I parked and went by them to my apartment, but I stared at them because I've never seen anything like that in my life. I had these gag-reflexes like I wanted to throw up, I guess that was evil of me too, right?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]


Hello DanieltheDragon,

You said, “If the friend turns out to be a sociopath and a narcissist you would gain greater freedom and happiness.� You also ask, “Would you maintain a close relationship with someone who turns out to be a sociopath and a narcissist?�

I’ll make use of the variable that you introduced into the friendship relationship example as a means to assure you that there’s no variableness in the character of Christ that would give anyone a reason to turn from Him.

But people turn from God because of false variables introduced from outside sources. An outside source may be someone giving false information or displaying a bad example of the behavior of Christ or it may be oneself that looks for excuses not to submit to God’s authority. Do you remember the false variables given Eve?

If my best friend turns out to be a sociopath or a narcissist, I would not abandon him, but would stick with him with the hope of encouraging him away from the undesirable path he took.

Take care,
Earl

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 312:

...
I’ll make use of the variable that you introduced into the friendship relationship example as a means to assure you that there’s no variableness in the character of Christ that would give anyone a reason to turn from Him.

"Why'd y'all forsake me there God, when here I am, strung up like a goose on Christmas."

That Jesus himself wonders about his own god is all the data I need to "turn away".

But people turn from God because of false variables introduced from outside sources. An outside source may be someone giving false information or displaying a bad example of the behavior of Christ
...

Like maybe Bibles and such that can't be shown to be accurate or truthful.

...or it may be oneself that looks for excuses not to submit to God’s authority.

Or it may be that folks reject ad hom attacks for the falacity of the argument they present.

[quote="Erexsaur']
Do you remember the false variables given Eve?
[/quote]
Can it be established that any "variable" given to Eve actually was?

If my best friend turns out to be a sociopath or a narcissist, I would not abandon him, but would stick with him with the hope of encouraging him away from the undesirable path he took.

As evidenced by your arguing here how proud we oughta be with God.

[Clownboat]

For you, Clownboat,

If this forum is for debates, then couldn’t you have simply answered my question about children under their parents to stay on the point I tried to illustrate instead of sidetracking the issue by talking about Big Foot and aliens? May Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny join hands to chase you!

Perhaps, but since I don't recall your question, I cannot answer this at this time.

Speaking about evidence, the Bible plainly points out that we are all surrounded by more than sufficient evidence pointing to the reality of God and that we are very well convinced of His authority.

This thread is not about evidence as to why we know the Bible is not the word of a god. Thanks though.
You see, it sounds nice when said as a believer, but the reality is that the Bible is wrong on this subject. As proof, I point to all the humans that do not share this reality of your god concept, nor are they convinced by any of its authority. This would apply to all religion, just not all of them are as arrogant as Paul was to say such a thing.

Please be careful. Unbelief toward God is more of a product of rejection of whats revealed than a product of doubt.

Tell that to the Muslims and the Hindu's for starters. See how you fare. Either way, I find you words here not to be true. Can you show you speak the truth, or is this just more, "seriously, you can believe me". Perhaps if you claim that a god gave you this message to deliver, that would make your claim more believable. I kid of course, you need to show you speak the truth, or start adding "In my opinion" to your claims if you want to be honest.

You correctly said that we should examine everything carefully and hold on to what’s good. Thank you. But worldview strongly affects how we examine things and what we call “good.�

You commend me and then caution me all in the same paragraph. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Please be careful. Opposing world views have opposing views of good and evil.

This is so obvious, I'm not sure why you typed it.
Opposing tastes in foods also have opposing preferences in taste. Note the use and meaning of the word 'opposing' in both.

You expressed the seriousness of the Christian life you lived, that you are now freed from religious beliefs, and that you are a better and more loving person. OK. But I think there are some things that need a little bit of explanation:

I'll see what I can do to help.

Would you count yourself having gained greater freedom and happiness after severing a relationship with a very best friend?

I'm sorry, but there is not enough information to answer this question honestly. I have never had a friend that supplied nor took away my freedom. I have spent much time with friends that have provided happiness though. What does freedom and friends have to do with each other?

I’m talking about a friend that you really appreciated. If the life you left did not produce the friendship relationship I described above with your Savior, you never knew Him despite all of the religion and the study.

I reject your claim that I was not a true Christian or whatever well you are trying to poison. I can converse back and forth with my friends. I believe you are lying to us by alluding to having that type of a relationship with your god, but await your clarification.

It appears that religious legalism was the thing that kept you in “holy� bondage that wore you out and hindered you from being a more loving person.

It appears that you do not know what you are talking about so you can only resort to 'poisoning the well'. What you describe did not apply to me, or at least was not a part of what started my questioning of my beliefs.

As RAID kills cockroaches, so does legalism kills faith dead! You know the dangers of religion without faith. Jesus hates it.

I know the dangers of faith and religion. Strapping bombs to chests and flying planes into buildings comes to mind. I do not know this 'dangers of religion without faith'. For that matter, I don't understand how a person could be religious without first having faith. Therefore, your 'dangers of religion without faith' is lost on me at this time. Faith leads to belief in Santa, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism (and more of course). Faith does NOT lead to the Christian god.

A right relation with Jesus (not mere religion) is a relationship of friendship that by nature frees you from legalistic bondage the same way you would be freed from crushing monetary debt. I say this from personal experience.

I'm sorry you suffered from so much bondage. I would assume that is why Christianity appealed to you. You don't have to feel alone anymore, you have a god that loves you. Perhaps an idea like this is appealing to you.

However, I did not and do not suffer from the type of bondage you describe. I must assume you are projecting.

Because He rose again...

Bam! The faith of Christianity at play. Now say, "because Mohammed ascended to heaven on his horse". Now apply faith...

your relationship with Him elevates your understanding to that of the supernatural realm.

Please show that this realm you speak of exists and is real.

Scripture you know would then take on a much deeper meaning above our natural understanding.

Careful about making an idol of the Bible, with what the Bible has to say about idol worship and all...

Please don’t tell me that you already been there because if you had you wouldn’t have burned yourself out and gave up.

What can I say besides, "you are wrong about me in this regard". I was there... I understand that your emotions will not allow you to believe that I was a true follower of Christ.

If atheism has not its own “gospel,� then why are people drawn to it?

This is news to me. Can you show that people are drawn to atheism. I hope you understand that this comment of yours is like claiming people are drawn the the channel "off".

You are a loving person for what purpose? Where did you get the ability?

I strive not to cause harm to my fellow humans and try to do unto them as I would like to be done unto me. It's not a far fetched concept, some people just seem to need to be instructed by a god concept to act this way. For me, it's just natural I guess.

Perhaps I am just naturally good and you are just naturally feel bondage (like you alluded to above)? If so, that would provide you with incentive to pick a religion, while I would not have that said incentive. Now... all you need is faith and then pick a religion to apply it to.

How would you or I know that we have any purpose in life without a “God-concept?�

This is more revealing then you probably intended. You see, I have purpose in my life. Much of it revolves around my wife and kids, plus the legacy I will leave behind. I'm sorry that you cannot find purpose in life without a god concept to provide it. At least you are not alone in that regard.

Would you prefer pretending there is no concept of the God that’s supplying your breath and miss out on your unique purpose for which you have biblically equipped yourself?

I would prefer that in debate, you don't invent made up made up god concepts that supply our breath. Is a biology course needed?

God has never meant for you or anyone to be driven by needless scare tactics.

The irony of this statement when it immediately follows: "and miss out on your unique purpose for which you have biblically equipped yourself?"

At least you avoided the typical hell fire scare tactic.

But I surely wish that someone would use scare tactics on me if his warnings were against danger that’s real.

Can you show that your warnings are real? I thought not.

Your relationship with your best friend is not based on scare.

Let's put this in perspective shall we? What would happen to your soul if you rejected the sacrifice that your best friend made on your behalf? Hell? Separation from said god concept? Not based on scare my butt.

Are good and evil relative terms? Are you saying that an act deemed evil in America, may not be considered evil in another culture?

That is correct.

OK. If someone steals from you and kills you here in America, would that be counted as good in another country? If so, what would you think of that country?

Killing causes harm to another human being. Don't cause harm to other humans! I don't care what country you live in. (Self preservation scenarios not being considered here obviously).

For me, killing (unless self preservation) is bad. Now examine the old testament. Killing was bad, except for when a god ordered the rulers to order their subjects to commit genocide against their neighbors on its behalf.

Subjects: Why would we kill our neighbors (except their virgins of course, we will keep them).
Rulers: God said! Do you want god to punish you with a famine!?!
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca (Is said by some to have said this).

You already know that one would never allow himself to give up a very good thing because of a false impression due to error in understanding.

You are wrong. I don't know this.
A person may stop taking their medication (a good thing helping them to survive) because of a false impression or error in understanding about the side effects.

Please don’t miss out on your unique God-given potential that awaits your development.

Is this more scare tactics, or more of a scare you with the potential that you will miss out on something if we don't believe your claims about your god? If I was your child, I would probably believe this and be indoctrinated, but I'm a thinking adult.

You guys are always prayed for with the greatest of hope.

Prayer IMO is a way to feel like you are helping without actually doing anything. IMO, this prayer is self serving, but if it makes you feel better and you are not harming anyone, then I say go for it. Pray away.

[Danmark]

For you, Danmark,

You said, “It is that spirit of Christ and the Gospel that empowers us to let go of the homophobic prejudices of our youth, our traditions, our bigotry, and embrace our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as equal partners in the family of man.�

Let’s change this sentence a little. Let’s say, “...and embrace our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as equal candidates for the delivering power of the gospel.�

It is the job of the church never to be bound by prejudices of any kind including homophobia. Jesus tells us, “they that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.� We were all born with the sickness of sin. The gospel is thus available to everyone- bar none for the delivering power of Christ from the sickness of sin. That of course includes gays and lesbians.

As the church of Jesus Christ is ready to accept anyone-bar none-including homosexuals for deliverance and reconciliation, so must all that go to Christ including homosexuals go to Him on His terms- bar none. What God says is sin is sin that must be forsaken. Let no one therefore restrain himself from the delivering power of Christ blaming others for phobias against them.

I applaud this. It sounds very good. However, what actually happens too often is all of the preamble, the good will, the high principles, are stated perfunctorily, and then the entire focus, filled with venom and self righteousness is centered on "What God says is sin is sin that must be forsaken."

And the self appointed vigilante committee, holding "God's Banner" high comes marching down main street pointing fingers and shouting "Sinner!" and claiming to know exactly what sin is. Do they focus on the Ten Commandments? They do not. Do they focus on wearing shirts of blended fabrics? They do not. Instead they set forth one 'sin' above all others to carry on about and forget that Jesus said all the law and the prophets depend on two things:
Love God and love your neighbor.

Having done their evil, and satisfied themselves about condemning the 'sin' and the 'sinner,' they turn on their heels with a self righteous sniffs, imperious glances, and with heads high walk off convinced they've done the Lord's work with nary a clue they have become Pharisees.