Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

[perfessor]

http://www.wlos.com/

I don't get it. Didn't Jesus ply his trade among tax collectors, prostitutes, and other "sinners"?

East Waynesville Baptist asked nine members to leave. Now 40 more have left the church in protest. Former members say Pastor Chan Chandler gave them the ultimatum, saying if they didn't support George Bush, they should resign or repent. The minister declined an interview with News 13. But he did say "the actions were not politically motivated." There are questions about whether the bi-laws were followed when the members were thrown out.

So my question for debate: Should the East Waynesville Baptist Church lose its tax-exempt status?

I say they should, since the pastor has turned the church into an arm of the Republican party.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

They should not be forced to share their accomplishments with anyone else. Why are the rich treated like they have done something wrong. If everyone was taxed at say 10%, than the rich person making ten-million dollars a year, would be paying far more in taxes than a person making thirty-thousand dollars a year.

No one has the right in Liberal ideology to force their way of life on another person, but that is exactly what the rich most endure.

How is that Christian?

The rich are oppressed? Certainly not in this administration.


No person on earth reserves the right to live in upmost luxery while millions worldwide struggle (and fail) to meet the basic human needs.

Is there any particular reason Bill Gates' needs a private trout stream? Would Jesus have advocated his right to hoard all that unnecissary wealth? Jesus' encounters with rich men in the Bible all typically ended the same; The rich man was told to share his riches with the poor, granting him even greater riches in heaven.

Al, you constantly preach the docrine of repentance. Does the rich man not need to repent from his sin of greed?

You are all for the unborn babie's right to live. That's great. But what about the starving kid in Africa? Do the protection of his rights to life not fall under the same idealogy? I believe the underprivelidged person has a right to a small portion of the rich man's wealth. That is just common decency.

A doctor neglecting to tend to the needs of a patient can be charged with homicide. Why can't the rich person neglecting to lend his obligations to society be charged in the very same fashion?

I might go as far as to equate being rich to murder. No, I will go that far. I believe the comparison is justified. Everyone is aware of the poverty in third world countries. But that new sportscar seems to always take precedence.

Capitalism and free enterprise are a disease- at least to the extent the United States practices it. Jesus definetly seems to favor a more socialistic society. Some examples:

Acts 2:42-47, describing life as a Christian.
"The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles. All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it. The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other's homes and shared their food. At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group."

Acts 4:32 & 34
"The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything."
"None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it."

James 4:1-5
Pay attention to this if you're rich. Cry and moan about the misery that is coming to you. Your riches have decayed, and your clothes have been eaten by moths. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be used as evidence against you. Like fire, it will destroy your body. You have stored up riches in these last days. The wages you refused to pay the people who harvested your fields shout to God against you. The Lord of Armies has heard the cries of those who gather the crops. You have lived in luxury and pleasure here on earth. You have fattened yourselves for the day of slaughter.

[AlAyeti]

Capitalism and free enterprise are a disease- at least to the extent the United States practices it. Jesus definetly seems to favor a more socialistic society. Some examples:

Acts 2:42-47, describing life as a Christian.
"The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles. All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it. The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other's homes and shared their food. At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group."

Acts 4:32 & 34
"The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything."
"None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it."
James 4:1-5
Pay attention to this if you're rich. Cry and moan about the misery that is coming to you. Your riches have decayed, and your clothes have been eaten by moths. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be used as evidence against you. Like fire, it will destroy your body. You have stored up riches in these last days. The wages you refused to pay the people who harvested your fields shout to God against you. The Lord of Armies has heard the cries of those who gather the crops. You have lived in luxury and pleasure here on earth. You have fattened yourselves for the day of slaughter.

So P-P,

It's OK to force the rich to adhere to Christian values and beliefs but not other kinds of people and their behavior?

Hmm, I see the same "advice" of Christians to others but the word "they" not only denotes ONLY Christians but shows that there IS a thing as a real Christian opposed to ones that simple say they are.

The Christians didn't seem to promote "socialism" but pure "unadulterated" communism. With the love of God and not atheism driving it.

No person on earth reserves the right to live in upmost luxery while millions worldwide struggle (and fail) to meet the basic human needs.

Yes, it seems that the "Protestant work ethic" indeed works. Look at America. And of course all of those Christian organizations feeding the poor worldwide while Progressive-Secularists promote humanist science. Which of course has poisoned more of the earth than has healed it.

Ever thought of the irony of the Nobel Peace prize named after the guy that invented TNT? Dynamit Nobel. Win it and you get rich.

While your only somewhat right about capitalism, there is nothing noble in the Nobel either. Was Alfred trying to buy salvation with his bequest?

But I applaud your fundamentalism on scripture I really do. The words are easy to understand in their context properly applied.

Al, you constantly preach the docrine of repentance. Does the rich man not need to repent from his sin of greed?

I preach repentance because it is a fundamental doctrine for salvation and returning someone to fellowship. Though I do NOT , judge a persons soul. Another fundamental truth.

Nothing I enjoy more than using the Bible truthfully.

You are all for the unborn babie's right to live. That's great. But what about the starving kid in Africa?

On both accounts I have done the right thing.

But let me not boast in anything but Christ.

A doctor neglecting to tend to the needs of a patient can be charged with homicide. Why can't the rich person neglecting to lend his obligations to society be charged in the very same fashion?

C'mon, what doctor loses sleep when a patient he or she has just saved leaves the hospital with a bill of $225,000?

The rich pay more taxes than I do. No corporation should be taxed for anything as they provide jobs to the poor to feed their families.

But I am not a Republican so go get em. Until of course they cannot do business in the US any longer.

I might go as far as to equate being rich to murder. No, I will go that far. I believe the comparison is justified. Everyone is aware of the poverty in third world countries. But that new sportscar seems to always take precedence.

I'm cool with your views labels are appropriate when they are the truth. Look at what all of those secular rich guys did to the American Indians and the Chinese laborers (and other poor people), while conquering America in the name of capitalism. Even trying to deify their actions. I fight heresy as much as I do people that misuse Biblical truth for evil purposes. I applaud you for the same.

Please keep using scripture. It is truth.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

So P-P,

It's OK to force the rich to adhere to Christian values and beliefs but not other kinds of people and their behavior?

I don't wish to force the rich to distribute the wealth because it is the "Christian" thing to do. It is just common decency.

If there were no Bible, and had Jesus never existed, I would still advocate heavy taxing of the upper class. It just so happens the biblical doctrine supports my convictions as well.

Ironicly, many so called "Christians" are very wealthy, and the Christian masses generally support the upper class as result of their Republican voting habits. My main objective in referring to verses was to contradict such Christian idealogy.

I preach repentance because it is a fundamental doctrine for salvation and returning someone to fellowship. Though I do NOT , judge a persons soul.

The point was, you constantly cry that homosexuals and seculiarists repent, yet seem to support the rich in their greed.

Does not quite add up in my opinion. The Bible does not seem to condone any excessive accumulation of wealth, regardless of the circumstances.

The rich pay more taxes than I do. No corporation should be taxed for anything as they provide jobs to the poor to feed their families.

I would agree, no corporation should be taxed. The overly opulent rulers and cohorts RUNNING the company should be taxed. Frankly, I don't care if they are single-handedly providing jobs for every impoverished individual in Africa. No person on Earth needs twelve billion dollars. No person on earth deserves twelve billion dollars.

I often see parents that when confronted with questions from their children about "why little johny got a Mercedes for his tenth birthday and I don't", respond with the tired old rhetoric of "because life isn't fair". Screw that. That's the kind of crap lottery winners tell others to try and justify their ill-gotten wealth. Life can be made fair in most situations, only the government (or whoever is in charge under the given circumstances) chooses not to make it so.

If Bill Gates were to sell all of his unnecissary amenities, buy a respectable sized house, and give the rest to the poor, he could litterally support every meager person in Botswana. Does this not make Bill a murderer by principle?

I'm cool with your views labels are appropriate when they are the truth. Look at what all of those secular rich guys did to the American Indians and the Chinese laborers (and other poor people), while conquering America in the name of capitalism. Even trying to deify their actions. I fight heresy as much as I do people that misuse Biblical truth for evil purposes. I applaud you for the same.

Okay, just one problem.

You single out merely secularists as committing crimes against humanity. Lets not forget the many Christians that have done equal (or worse).

[AlAyeti]

You know P-P, I was going to stop arguing. I agree with so much of what you present. But you also want to force your views on others whether or not you use religion.

I see this in the homosexual agenda as well. Their goals to silence Christianity and imprison Christians is as real as Gates' money.

But then you interjected this mythology when you were doing so well:

Okay, just one problem.

You single out merely secularists as committing crimes against humanity. Lets not forget the many Christians that have done equal (or worse).

Please prove this. I also went on to higher education and heard this atrocities myth incessantly laid at the feet of Christians by anti-Christians.

Where are the equal number of human beings slaughtered by "Christians" as compared with atheist-communism and - long after the enlightenment - secular America, or Europe? And of course the unending ocean of victims of Islam. Why and how can anyone honestly write or say the words "Islam the religion of peace." I guess these same people can throw a brick in the air and claim it will not fall to the ground. But truth is against both views as Islam and the brick are proven by evidence.

And how many innocent children and women suffered from all of those African tribal wars? Oops, did I use a past tense? Rwanda may just have to be used as reference huh? Or the genocides going on this very second in many African countries.

Seems Ghengis Khan racked up a few more victims than even the Pope. That is if history can be believed.

Oh, and let us not forget the uncountable numbers of humans slaughtered by those good ol' Pantheists of history . . . Greece, Rome to name just two.

Of course their was Buddhist and Taoist Japan that literally slaughtered the Chinese and others by the millions and millions in their little land grab leading up to WWII.

Please, let us use history. REAL history, to judge the worth of belief systems that have appeared on the world's stage.

Secularism and of course its religion of Humanism, has accounted for the largest numbers of adult and child-age humans murdered in the history of mankind. World War One and Two were secular affairs, as I don't remember any religion asserting dominance for the cause of those wars. Then again, Aryanism IS a religion and very Nazi now that I think about it. And yet, you still see people that claim to be educated that proscribe the Christian religion, which "fundamentally" teaches against killing anyone in the name of Christ, as being somehow a Nazi attribute. Can we please use the Gospel and the words of Christ Jesus to define His followers? Is it so much to ask of an "intelligent" person to do the research???? Is that a difficult homework assignment class?

And since the rise to power of Neo-Liberalism attached to secularism, and Humanism, even more staggering numbers of innocents were tacked on to the roll call of death. These humans were murdered before they were even allowed to see the light of day or decide what they wanted to believe. Abortion has accounted for the slaughter of hundreds of millions of humans JUST since Roe v. Wade.

Yes, yes, please compare things. And continue on your with the use of Christianity as the rule of measure.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

315-6AD= Thousands of Pagans slain.
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

6th century= Pagans were declared void of all rights.

fourth century- The philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

415= The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church.
[DO19-25]

782= Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

1234= Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

15th century= 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

16th and 17th century= English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

96= Semlin/Wieselburg Hungary, thousands slain.[WW23]
Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

98= Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]

98= Marra (Maraat an-numan) thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

1099= Jerusalem conquered more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."

The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]

Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]

1099= Battle of Askalon, 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

372= Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

1034= John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake. [LI475-522]

1527= Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]

In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]

1572= France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

17th century= 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

694= Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

1010= The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

1235= Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

1257, 1267= Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

1290= Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

1337= Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

1348= All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

1349= In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

1389= In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

1492= Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]

On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]







Quite a repertoire. Not sure if it surpasses the amount of violence on account of secularists, but it must come close.

World War One and Two were secular affairs, as I don't remember any religion asserting dominance for the cause of those wars.

World War Two was a religious war in every sense. Hitler used the Bible as justification for the Nazi scourge. He also advocated a theocracy (of sorts). "All schools should have a religious foundation" is one of his quotes, I do believe.

And yet, you still see people that claim to be educated that proscribe the Christian religion, which "fundamentally" teaches against killing anyone in the name of Christ, as being somehow a Nazi attribute. Can we please use the Gospel and the words of Christ Jesus to define His followers?

So you say the thousands of Christian attrocities cannot be labeled "Christian" because they go against biblical doctrine? If that is the case, I don't see how you can hold athiests accountable for secularist attrocities, being that the grounds for those horrific acts have no base in most humanist philosophy.

A Christian is one who submits to Christ. It does not matter if he or she accurately obeys the doctrine. The list of attrocities I posted were made by Christians acting in the name of Christ.



Personally, I think if all Christians were to accept and publicly condemn the acts brought about by people of their worldview in years past, athiests could no longer effectively use them as an argument against the Bible. But instead many Christians choose to turn a blind eye, and pretend such things never happened. They are only fooling themselves.

If we distance ourselves from such deeds, no one can rightfully hold us accountable for them. Don't try hide from the past. Accept it and move on.

But you also want to force your views on others whether or not you use religion.

But of course; it's called politics. Republicans wish to enforce their agendas. Democrats do the very same.

If I believe a more socialistic government is in societies best interest, should I not advocate it's implentment? Do you not do the very same in regard to your views?

[AlAyeti]

To all that read the following, I make the post with heavy heart and and weighty soul. May God grant peace to the earth soon. Let the Prince of Peace be believed and His words followed.

315-6AD= Thousands of Pagans slain.
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

100

6th century= Pagans were declared void of all rights.

0

fourth century- The philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

1

415= The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church.
[DO19-25]

1

782= Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

4500

1234= Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

11,000

15th century= 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

10,000

16th and 17th century= English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

50,000

96= Semlin/Wieselburg Hungary, thousands slain.[WW23]
Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

25,000

98= Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]

160,100

98= Marra (Maraat an-numan) thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

20,000

1099= Jerusalem conquered more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."

40,000 (assuming some victims were non-infidels)

The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]

Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]

1099= Battle of Askalon, 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

200,000

372= Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

100,000

1034= John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake. [LI475-522]

1

1527= Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]

1 plus 150

In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]

This is of dubious truth and honesty but 300,000

1572= France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

19,999

17th century= 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

1,000,000

694= Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

0

1010= The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

500

1235= Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

34

1257, 1267= Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

50,000 though this could have been political.

1290= Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

10,000

1337

= Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

20,000

1348= All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

Dubious truth and doubtful. 100,000

1349= In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

If all the Jews were murdered than where did the Jews in later centuries come from?

25,000

1389= In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

3000

1492= Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]

On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]

Small pox was a disease.

The evil that is Massachusetts speaks until this day. But, small pox was a disease.

2,113,252.

Any of these muders given accpetance from the Gospels?

The numbers of humans killed at the hands of Athesim and Secularism and pagan religions and other civilizations and peoples?

My calculator doesn't have that many numbers, but let's go with something like a billion-plus. That is 1,000,000,000 with more numbers.

And if you divide those killed by Catholicism from those by non-Catholics oposed to what was done in the name of Catholicism, you have a very different outcome.

Protest - ant - ism.

There is much written and preached on the atrocities done in the name of "Christianity." By Christians. Even the last Pope asked the Jewish nation of Israel for forgiveness of what was done by the Catholic Church. None of the violence finds any justification in the words of the Christ.

Do the math.

[AlAyeti]

World War Two was a religious war in every sense. Hitler used the Bible as justification for the Nazi scourge. He also advocated a theocracy (of sorts). "All schools should have a religious foundation" is one of his quotes, I do believe.

Anyone that claims that Hitler was a practicing Christian has no right to be taken seriously in any form of debate.

Here is another absurd point of view.

A Christian is one who submits to Christ. It does not matter if he or she accurately obeys the doctrine. The list of attrocities I posted were made by Christians acting in the name of Christ.

Jesus mentioned a thing or two about false followers. Many will come to me in that day and say Lord Lord did we not do many wonderful things in your Name?"

"I will say depart from me you workers of evil."

Even the most reprehensible comments puffed out by an atheist or secular-humanist, knows enough to tell a Christian how the should live IF they are a real Christian.

There is a line of demarcation. Even the pagan knows this.

What was it Ghanda said?

Look at your statement: Personally,

"I think if all Christians were . . ."

The rest qualifies what it IS to be a Christian. Please use the same jugment on the history of the Church. Many "Christians" made it out of the Dark Ages to found the Churches feeding the millions starving around the world today.

I wish that secularists fought Muslim's like they do Christians. But, then again, Christians do not kill infidels (anymore) now do they. Islam has never stopped and yet you hear nothing directed towards todays atrocities commited by Muslims.

If we distance ourselves from such deeds, no one can rightfully hold us accountable for them. Don't try hide from the past. Accept it and move on

.

Who will let us? You showed that 2 million people have been killed by Christians some of which were in retaliation for the unjustified murder and stealing of Jerusalme by Muslims.

Since the unchallengeable power of Secularization siezed America in its death grip, 50-million children have gone to their deaths for only being conceived.

Do you or anyone else cry for that atrocity? It is fought for, to continue without challenge. Now, if Christians that approve of the slaughter of the innocents by abortion were to return to their faith and bring Christ to people that have sex without consequence, then, the slaughter would be slowed in vast numbers.

But of course; it's called politics.

No, it is called pure evil. Satan is the Prince of the power of the air.

Politics perfectly described two-thousand years ago.

If I believe a more socialistic government is in societies best interest, should I not advocate it's implentment? Do you not do the very same in regard to your views?

Yes I agree with Christ being accpeted by all. But socialism is a joke. Russia, N. Korea, Cuba and China proves that. How many people escape from America and head to those countries. They are called communism but you see that there deeds do not match their words.

Christianity is pure and perfect communism. Not socialism. Socialism would include non-believers. In the first centuries before Roman Catholicism took control, the church was made up of believers "Called Out" from the society. In fact that is what the Romans thought of them in fact. "Their customs are strange . . ."

Man, I'm all for everyone embracing pure and perfect Christian communism. Then I wouldn't have had to pay $2000 for my Taylor guitar. Bob would have made them free.

But I'm completely happy that Christ has done for me what he did for Martin Luther King Jr.. For I know that when he thanked God Almighty for being free at last, that he meant only what a Christian can.

Jesus.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

The numbers of humans killed at the hands of Athesim and Secularism and pagan religions and other civilizations and peoples?

My calculator doesn't have that many numbers, but let's go with something like a billion-plus. That is 1,000,000,000 with more numbers.

Frankly, I don't care which side has shed more blood. You make this out to be some sports-style competition with death counts mounted on scoreboards; the side with the lesser death count declared the winner.

The mere principle of the matter is the only thing we need take note of. Both Christians and athiests have wrought death and destruction. It is essential that we acknowledge this.

Accepting our faults is the first step towards eradicating them.

Anyone that claims that Hitler was a practicing Christian has no right to be taken seriously in any form of debate.

Judging from his words and actions, I can most certainly conclude that Christianity was an underlying factor in his political activity.

Where am I wrong?
Don't just call my views absurd. Show me they are absurd.

Jesus mentioned a thing or two about false followers. Many will come to me in that day and say Lord Lord did we not do many wonderful things in your Name?"

"I will say depart from me you workers of evil."

Even the most reprehensible comments puffed out by an atheist or secular-humanist, knows enough to tell a Christian how the should live IF they are a real Christian.

There is a line of demarcation.

Can you show me this "line of demarcation"? Where is it drawn?

Ephesians 5:10
"Determine which things please the Lord".

The Bible is open for interpretation. And that is just what the propagaters of past attrocities did. Granted, their interpretations that supposedly dictated them to kill those in opposition to Gods will were greatly influenced by material and egocentric gain. But whatever the case, nothing negates the fact that they acted in the name of God.

You and I act in the name of God, do we not? Therefore, to any outsider's perspective, we are one and the same as those who committed the past crimes.

That is, unless we choose to distance ourselves from those crimes. Accept the crimes. Condemn them. Disassociate your link to them.

No, it is called pure evil. Satan is the Prince of the power of the air.

Then we are ALL evil, being that we all have opinions and a desire to see them implemented.

Is this what you mean?

Yes I agree with Christ being accpeted by all. But socialism is a joke. Russia, N. Korea, Cuba and China proves that. How many people escape from America and head to those countries. They are called communism but you see that there deeds do not match their words.

The implement of some form of Socialistic principles are required to take the power away from the rich and put it back into the hands of the common man, bridging the wealth gap. I do not advocate full socialism. It is, as you said, a joke; rarely works works in the people's favor as intended.

[AlAyeti]

Judging from his words and actions, I can most certainly conclude that Christianity was an underlying factor in his political activity.

Where am I wrong?

From the words and actions of Christ Jesus and every one of His followers in the New Testament. Blame the Catholics for what Catholics did.

I am a protestant for a reason. I preach repentance and live a peaceful life for Biblical reasons as well.

Frankly, I don't care which side has shed more blood. You make this out to be some sports-style competition with death counts mounted on scoreboards; the side with the lesser death count declared the winner.

Now c'mon. That is not fair. What I do is to show the nonsense of atheists perpetuating the myth that Christianty somehow wrought such terror on the world. In comparison of the hundreds of millions that have been slaughtered by other belief systems, namely atheism and secularism, indeed the shoe is on the other much more bloody foot.

The mere principle of the matter is the only thing we need take note of.

Bingo! Most of the people doing the fighting for Christian causes never even saw a bible. Atheists did all of their atrocities after the enlightenment. Please write that down and keep it close to you. I debate this in many places.

Both Christians and athiests have wrought death and destruction. It is essential that we acknowledge this.

Atheists squirm like worms on a hot sidewalk to deny the facts of history while bantering about Christian woes they know nothing about.

I employ empiricism and they employ smoke and mirrors. Hopefully you can see the numbers I used to compare wrongs commited by what and whom throughout history. I would like to see the reaction of these "enlightened" non-godian peace promoting leftists at either one Islamic Sharia trial or watching just one abortion.

In both cases the innocent would be the focus of the topic.

It is the mere principal of the matter.

Don't just call my views absurd. Show me they are absurd.

They are utterly absurd because no one can show anywhere in the New Testament, support for what Hitler or any genocidal maniac perpetrated on anyone. You can find scriptural support for killing non-believers in the Koran but the teachings of the Son of God are clear and unmistakeable. In fact, Hitlers scientists measured the skulls and other parts of Jewish people to measure the evolutionary quality of them. That is on film.

Quote:
Jesus mentioned a thing or two about false followers. Many will come to me in that day and say Lord Lord did we not do many wonderful things in your Name?"

"I will say depart from me you workers of evil."

Even the most reprehensible comments puffed out by an atheist or secular-humanist, knows enough to tell a Christian how the should live IF they are a real Christian.

There is a line of demarcation.

Can you show me this "line of demarcation"? Where is it drawn?

I really need to print out the entire New Testament for text support?

Your point is that "Christians" have done something wrong throughout history by killing people.

Where do you support this opinion?

From every word in the New Testament. Starting with every word of the Gospels.

The Bible is open for interpretation. And that is just what the propagaters of past attrocities did.

No they didn't. They literally ignored the text. In fact Gutenberg's Bible wasn't even printed until 1454. John Wycliffe only wrote the first english translation in 1382. Not exactly the speedy press.

How many people were even literate for the next 400 years, or had a means to read it? Certainly not the mercenaries that were employed alongside the peasants that fought with the Knights during the Crusades to take back the "Holy Land" stolen by the Muslims.

If people would have known what Jesus said about Jerusalem, they would have let the Muslims have it. You do know what Jesus said about the future of worshipping God I hope?

It's in the Gospels, John 4:21-25

21Jesus replied, "Believe me, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans know so little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. 23But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship him that way. 24For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth."

25The woman said, "I know the Messiah will come--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

26Then Jesus told her, "I am the Messiah!"[c]

[palmera]

Interesting debate you two. One thing Al. You repeatedly assert, and rightfully so, that atrocities done in the name of Jesus have no foundation in the gospels. Therefore it's not Christians that are doing them. You further speak of other faiths like Islam, and go on to others like atheism and "secularism" (whatever that means) and speak of atrocities without attending to them the way you do for Christianity. Do you belive that Islam, atheism, and "secularism" have inherent apathy toward murder (et. al.) or that they somehow inherently advocate it?

Also, this whole Christian v.ssecularar thing fails to attend to the reality that one cannot separate Christianity from the economic, political, environmental world from which it was created. Further practicing Christians live, eat, breath, and act in a secular society (here in the U.S.). Christians are necessarily every bit as secular as everyone else. The divide for some comes on "secularism" which is only the advocacy of disabling the government to make any law to establish one a religion over another, or against freedom of religion. That's the extent of "secularism."

So, I'm just wondering how it is we got to the point where Christians are somehow outside the boundaries of society, outside the secular, the profane etc. If that were the case, which it isn't, Christianity would lose touch with the most basic teachings of Jesus.

Anyway, the whole, who killed more people bit, is really a mute point. It doesn't matter who killed more because it doesn't change anything. Atrocitieses were done in the name of Christianity, atrocities have also been done in the name of economic and political expansion and power plays, and atrocities have been an entangled mixture of the two. One cannot readily separate religion from society, religion from economy, religion from politics. It's embedded in everything we do whether we choose to attend to it or not. All our actions and decisions, beliefs, and faiths are woven from experiences with each other, regardless of the setting.

We're creating a false reality in trying to define religion, in this case Christianity, against society, or secular society. This simply is not the reality.

What do you all think?