"Spiritual" Marxism?

[Haven]

Recently, the Dalai Lama (the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism) came out as a Marxist. Marxism, as most know, is a materialistic, atheistic, quasi-religious system of economics and philosophy based on the working class ("proletariat") collectively destroying--typically through violent means--the owning class ("bourgeoisie"). It was the ideology behind communism and all the atrocities it brought. It was the ideology of Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.

Earlier, the Dalai Lama claimed that "kindness [was his] religion." This new statement supporting Marxism seems to contradict that, as Marxism is anything but a philosophy of kindness or compassion.

Debate questions: Can Marxism be spiritual? Can it be kind? Is Marxism compatible in any way with kindness or spirituality?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1 by Haven]

Marxism is not, (except in its most notable attempted implementation) materialistic, atheistic or quasi-religious. Marxism itself will never be remotely religious, as it makes no supernatural claims.

As cited from the Collins English Dictionary (by dictionary.reference.com), Marxism is :
"the economic and political theory and practice originated by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels that holds that actions and human institutions are economically determined, that the class struggle is the basic agency of historical change, and that capitalism will ultimately be superseded by communism".

Communism itself (same source) "advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community".

Marxism isn't related to spirituality. This is like asking if democracy can be spiritual, if maths can be spiritual, or if the democratic party's policies are spiritual.
Marxism is easily compatible with both kindness and spirituality.

It is more than likely the Dalai Lama was saying he generally supported communist ideas over capitalist ones.

Wikipedia:

"I am not only a socialist but also a bit leftist, a communist. In terms of social economy theory, I am a Marxist. I think I am farther to the left than the Chinese leaders. [Bursts out laughing.] They are capitalists."

"I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member", citing his favorite concepts of self-sufficiency and equal distribution of wealth.He does not believe that China implemented "true Marxist policy", and thinks the historical communist states such as the Soviet Union "were far more concerned with their narrow national interests than with the Workers' International"

[WinePusher]

Marxism is not, (except in its most notable attempted implementation) materialistic, atheistic or quasi-religious.

Really? Have you read Marx? Marx's theory of both history and philosophy were materialistic, which is why they're referred to as historical materialism and dialectical materialism. The very essence of Marxism is that the material and economic conditions of society determine how that society will reproduce itself overtime. And again, Marx's hatred of religion should be well known to anyone who's read his writings. Marx saw religion as the drug of the people, he saw religion as an impediment to the socialist revolution he ultimately desired because, in his view, religion would cause people to be content in the poverty that is supposedly wrought by capitalism and thus the people wouldn't rise up against the bourgeoisie.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 3 by WinePusher]

Marxism is in no way quasi-religious, Marx's hatred of religion doesn't (to me) seem to be considered an aspect of Marxism (obviously Marxism isn't just all of Marx's views), nor is it materialistic. The view that material conditions determine the future of a society is not itself the view that only the material exists, regardless of whether or not Marx also held that view.

[WinePusher]

[Replying to post 3 by WinePusher]

Marxism is in no way quasi-religious, Marx's hatred of religion doesn't (to me) seem to be considered an aspect of Marxism (obviously Marxism isn't just all of Marx's views), nor is it materialistic. The view that material conditions determine the future of a society is not itself the view that only the material exists, regardless of whether or not Marx also held that view.

I really don't understand what you mean when you say that Marxism isn't quasi-religious. If you mean to say that Marxism, as an ideology, is not completely identical with actual religions like Christianity or Islam then I'd agree. However, Marxism does make claims about the world that have been proven wrong, just as Christianity and Islam have made claims about the world that have been proven wrong. Similarly, all three of these ideologies possess an unhinged group of fanatical followers that rebel against reason.

Now, Marx has explicitly expressed his disdain towards religion and when Marxism has been implemented in actual countries religion has been persecuted. What more is needed to convince you that Marxism is inherently atheistic? Can you point out a single Marxist regime that hasn't been completely secular and atheistic? I haven't come across one.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 5 by WinePusher]

The OP described it (and I objected in my initial statement "Marxism is not ... materialistic, atheistic or quasi-religious") as quasi-religious.

Marxism is of course an ideology (and a set thereof), but I wouldn't call it a religion or pseudo-religious. Religions are (or tend to be) a subset of ideologies, and I certainly wouldn't see that label being used for Marxism.

Marx hates religion. Many countries that have implemented Marxism were anti-religious and anti-theistic, but I wouldn't call that a defining feature of Marxism is state atheism.

Certainly, in terms of the way the Dalai Lama referred to Marxism (as the OP is addressing), Marxism would effectively just be synonymous communism or socialism.

[Box Whatbox]

First point to bear in mind; Marx was no more a 'Marxist' that Jesus Christ was a 'Christian'.
I endorse much of what Winepusher has said about believers, moderate and fanatical, in these and similar 'isms'.
Is the Vatical-dominated Medieval Europe a good example of what any Christian theocracy would look like? I would say very probably. Not because the Christian faith is itself monstrous or dictatorial, but because authoritarian states are established by dogmatists who are both ruthless and capable. Humane and merciful religious believers do not even attempt to establish ideological dictatorships, and fanatical but incompetent believers may try, but do not succeed. Ideological dictators have tended, historically, to establish, and then maintain, their power by being both ruthless and effective.
The so-called Marxists who tore down the churches in Soviet Russia and elsewhere were behaving exactly like the triumphant Protestants who tore down the Catholic monasteries in Europe in earlier times; a rival ideology cannot be tolerated.

Second; economic Marxism is widespread amongst economists, even some who are not at all anti-capitalist. Economic Marxism is an approach to that subject that is philosophically materialist, and that recognises human labour as the basic source of economic value. ISTM it was this 'economic Marxism' that the Dalai Lama was espousing.

Third point: what Marx actually said about religion was not just that it is the 'opium of the people' as it is so oftem quote-mined, but
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
It quite true that he intensely disliked priesthoods and people who preach superstitious nonsense when they themselves actually know better.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 5 by WinePusher]

The OP described it (and I objected in my initial statement "Marxism is not ... materialistic, atheistic or quasi-religious") as quasi-religious.

Marxism is of course an ideology (and a set thereof), but I wouldn't call it a religion or pseudo-religious. Religions are (or tend to be) a subset of ideologies, and I certainly wouldn't see that label being used for Marxism.

Marx hates religion. Many countries that have implemented Marxism were anti-religious and anti-theistic, but I wouldn't call that a defining feature of Marxism is state atheism.

I called it quasi-religious because it's essentially a substitute for religion--it has Scriptures (the works of Marx [Lenin, Trotsky, etc. are often added in too]), prophets (Marx, Lenin, etc.), chosen people (the proletariat), devils (the capitalist class), infidels (anti-Marxists), an "end times" (the revolution), a Millenial Kingdom (socialism), and a heaven (full Communism). The only thing it's missing is a deity.

Marxism actually has a lot of parallels to Christianity; no surprise since Marx was influenced by Christian theology (no surprise for a 19th-century European scholar).

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 8 by Haven]

That's way too much metaphor for it to be quasi-religious.
You may as well say religion is quasi-everything-else.

What does the UK have? Scripture (law), prophets (prime ministers), chosen people (MPs), devils (criminals), infidels (tax and other evaders), an "end times" (a disestablishment of parliament following the perfection of the law), etc.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 8 by Haven]

This reminds of something Bertrand Russel wrote:

The Jewish pattern of history, past and future, is such as to make a powerful appeal to the oppressed and unfortunate at all times. St. Augustine adapted this pattern to Christianity, Marx to Socialism. To understand Marx psychologically, one should use the following dictionary:

Yahweh = Dialectial Materialism

The Messiah = Marx

The Elect = The Proletariat

The Church = The Communist Party

The Second Coming = The Revolution

Hell = Punishment of the Capitalists

The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth