The psychology of forgiveness

[Willum]

Of course on of the benefits of asking for forgiveness of god is to relieve debts we have little capability or right to expect forgiveness for, and appealing to a greater judge for that redemption.

But what is the actual effect?

So we do something terrible, like steal, or adulter, or take the lord's name in vain, we feel terrible about it, until we just about burst.
Then we do burst and ask god for forgiveness, and since he forgives us our sins, we feel good about ourselves again.

But what does this mean psychologically? The first case is doing something bad with a result of ultimately feeling good. This is called negative reinforcement.
Then we ask forgiveness, we do something good to feel good. This is called positive reinforcement.

Ultimately this cycle promotes bad behavior, as we are rewarded emotionally for doing something bad, then for doing something good. We are twice rewarded for our sins. How can this make us, or the people of the world better?

[Willum]

Good start-but let's parameterize.

1. Prayer increases the probability of repeated bad behavior
2. Prayer is a positive reinforcer for bad behavior.

1. No, prayer is too general: Sinning, then praying for forgiveness begins a cycle of repeating sin.
2. --> 1.

I love your population approach below. It has one fallacy that quite puts it in perspective:

Bad behaviors and good behaviors don't cancel out.
That would be logical, but it is not the way our minds work.
They reinforce.
No, I am not crazy.
It is just the way our minds work, we do something negative, like sin, or exercise, and there is a positive result, we tend to do it again. Sin has a double-wammy of both negative and positive reinf that most other things we do, do not.

Here's a couple of good articles:

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/ath ... ligious-do

http://www.nairaland.com/121066/predomi ... west-crime

Also not conclusive, but the picture seems to be coming together.

[Freddy_Scissorhands]

Then we ask forgiveness, we do something good to feel good.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something here but:
How is asking god for forgivness "doing something good"?
The "doing something good" would be to go and appologize to the person you've actually wronged and if you caused any damage try to make up for it. THAT'S a good action.
Asking a third, unrelated party to forgive you is literally a "nothing".
Well, it might help you feel better, but in reality you've really done nothing good at all. You've just gone through a motion that makes you feel better without actually having to deal with the consequences of your actions.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 12 by Freddy_Scissorhands]

Ah, Freddy, you're absolutely right. That would be the right thing to do...

But we're not talking about the right thing to do...

We're talking about the psychological effects of god forgiving us our sins. Which, as you say makes you feel better.

After doing something bad (negative), you ask for forgiveness (positive) and so feel better about yourself (reinforcement).

[Freddy_Scissorhands]

[Replying to Willum]

Sure, I understand that this is what the debate was about.
I was simply pointing out that the term "doing something good" in this context seems like a fairly inappropriate choice of words.

But sure, if the phrase "doing something good" referes to something that simply makes you FEEL good, than that's fine.

I just wanted to point out what the reality is, if you think that you, asking for forgivness to a third party, really doesn't do anything to actually clean up the mess you've caused. Not really.
And unfortunatelly, I felt the need to point that out, because I actually have encountered christians who think that it is more important to recieve forgivness from their god, than from the person they've actually wronged.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 13 by Willum]

Look the evidence does not point to this being the case. What you have is an idea or hypothesis that is completely testable.

Also the act of praying for forgiveness is not reinforcing the behavior itself that positive feeling is associated with the act of acknowledging that one did wrong.

You cannot ask for forgiveness( on a personal level) without acknowledging you did wrong. The positive feedback here is not associated with the negative behavior. What this does encourage though is a lack of actually addressing the issues that caused the problem in the first place. However, that is largely devoid of what is actually going on and would be a case by case basis. Addressing the problem could very well be part of asking for forgivness this largely depends on the individual though.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by DanieltheDragon]

Look deeper, man.
Look at the emotions associated with the process.

Especially look at the mondo.
Your eternal soul in the balance because of stolen paper-clips. The fear the angst!

The JOY when god forgives you and lets you go to heaven to escape hell. There are several reinforcing cycles in this cycle I didn't even mention, powerful reinforcing ones.

What I brang up was not the primary emotions. Just the personal ones!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 16 by Willum]

I am so lost in this conversation, I dont believe in souls and gods etc so why would I believe these imaginary constructs have a tangible effect?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by DanieltheDragon]

That was my problem as well. Then I realized how traumatic it's be for someone who believed they would be going to the bad place for all eternity because they stole the proverbial paperclips.

Its would be for them, quite a rush.
A rush over paperclips.

Now that I put it that way, that's quite an emotional roller-coaster/reinforcement cycle over paperclips!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 18 by Willum]

I agree that theists might experience greater highs and lows emotionally. This largely I am sure depends on the individual and how seriously they take their convictions secular or not.