Global Flood

[otseng]

One of the significant parts of the Creation Model (CM) is that a world-wide flood occurred. This flood covered the entire world. Naturally, many questions arise out of this:

How can a world-wide flood feasibly happen?
Where did all the water come from?
Where did all the water go?
What significance does it have on the CM?
What evidence are there of a global flood?

[YEC]

You see Jose, the YEC's have collected data...LOTS OF IT...is it their fault if it disagrees with your world view and agrees with scripture?

Personally I don't think so.

Uhhh....you know, we've asked you many times to show us the data. What is it? You've given us long lists of acronyms and word groups, but many others in this forum have presented the data that prove those things to be invalid. Where's the YEC data? If there actually is data that forces us to conclude that YEC belief is right, then we should hear it, and we will all agree that the YEC view is correct. You'd think that, over the last 150 years or so, someone would have come up with some

Now, rather than just call me stupid (which may well be correct), or accuse me of being so closed-minded as to refuse to look at what you tell us (certainly, there are those who behave this way), why don't you present it simply to me (again?) so that I can know what you base your argument upon. Obviously, I still don't get it. Try to convince me.

jose, Don't you read this forum amd see the info I and others have provided?

As a moderator you should know about the problems associated with your assertions as presented above. It is dishonest.....For the info you want...go read my post.Then get back to me. OK Mr. Civil debator?

[Jose]

Where's the YEC data? If there actually is data that forces us to conclude that YEC belief is right, then we should hear it, and we will all agree that the YEC view is correct.

jose, Don't you read this forum amd see the info I and others have provided?

As a moderator you should know about the problems associated with your assertions as presented above. It is dishonest.....For the info you want...go read my post.Then get back to me. OK Mr. Civil debator?

Thanks! You didn't call me stupid! Unfortunately, I looked through a whole bunch of your posts, and didn't find any data. Maybe this means that you and I have different interpretations of what the word "data" means. I use it to mean "measurements, observations, experimental results, etc. from the real world." It looks like you might consider "data" to mean "logical things I can say, or references to logical-sounding things other people have said, or evidence that I didn't understand what the other guy said." For example:

3/26/05
As an experiment.....find a long flat rock and bend it into an "S"...lets see what happens.

3/24/05
Oh...I forgot, things happened yesteryears just the same as they happen today.

Because we see the continents creeping today..It's obvious they were also creeping just after and during the flood...riiiiight?

3/19/05
Gray squirrels are not found with penguins....Giraffes are never found with squids. Eastern Box Turtles are never found with Lions...your point?

3/18/05
thanks for the reply.....although most of it is hand waving.

Now if you really want to present the transitionals I suggest you post them rather than a link to some list.

3/18/05
John S, you are filtering your science through frafulent evo-minded eyes.

Try folding a rock...they snap crackle and pop.

The soft sediment is the best answer.

3/18/05
John S......Once again there are many recumbent fold that are found at the tops of mountains that were NEVER under the deep down buried pressure you mentioned.
<drawing>
interesting photo page

3/18/05
Aximili23, If you don't like the linage I presented...then present a new one and I'll show you where it is wrong.
...

What you fail to realize is that all of those species were comtemporanious. I already proved it is easy to line up fossils and call it evolution.

3/17/05
With all due respect, this talk.origins/hunt style list has already been refuted....for an example scroll up 5 post and look at the globe pictures. (referring to 3/15/05, below)

3/15/05
In the first Picture, Ophiacodon packs his bags and heads north from Texas to the USSR and then becomes Phthinosuchus. I wonder how much trouble this guy had crossing the Appalachian mountains on his journey to evolve?
<pictures of globes>
Then a few yers later Phthinosuchus decides to head south, passing through Pennsylvania and New Jersey...and ends up in South Africa and Antartica where it becomes Thrinaxodon.
<pictures of globes>
Thrinaxodon then hangs out there for a while, evolves into Cynogathus then decides to head north again and takes a trip to East Asia.
<pictures of globes>
I suppose some where on this journey Cynogathus decided to evolve into Morganucodon during the early Jurassic.

WOW....What a trip

All that time, all that distance, all that evolution....and the transitionals are spread out all over the globe... with no evolving fossils found on the way? why?

3/18/05
When it comes to scientific ideas, the bible is most accurate.

3/17/05
Want another example....click on previous and check out the skull transitionals I posted.

3/17/05
ell Aximili23, there is the ah, er, clears throat...flood models that explain the fossils found in our geological column better than the evo models

3/17/05
Recumbent folds in layers of strata indicate that the strata was still soft when folded.
Think about it...if the rocks were hard...they would snap, crackle and pop....not bent in half.

3/15/05
…Other evidences pointing to the Flood is the presence of the widespread conglomerates which cover as much as a million square miles with an almost uniformly thick layer of sediment.
It's quite obvious something more than a local flood or old sea deposited these formations.

3/14/05
Is this really a transitional series of the pelvis...or just what the pelvis of different selected animals would look like.....if lined up in apparent evolutionism fashion? ... Now, isn't evolution simple?

3/14/05
Other mechanics of fossil sorting include:
1) TAB’s
2) Hydrolic sorting (presented above)
3) Zonation
a. Ecological
b. biogeographic
4) Chance
5) Selective preservation
6) Differential escape
7) laboratory placement

When the above properties are applied to the complex flood geology, one can then begin to understand the placement of fossils in certain strata.

3/14/05
At times the flood waters covered an area...only later to be uncovered then covered again. It is during this uncovered period that the dinos walked around. So What.

3/14/05
Either stay on topic or once again...go away.

3/14/05
Do I really need to respond to that nonsense? You are so far out in right field I actually need to chuckle at you......
The flood model works my strawman speaking evo friend...quick burial after the animal walked in the mud. [that was being deposited by the flood at that very time]

3/14/05
Sheeze man, present something that actually counters what I say instead of a bunch of mumbo-jumbo words that really mean nothing.

3/14/05
Think about it....if an animal died in your back yard what would happen to it?

3/13/05
Show me a series of fossils that clearly demonstrate the evolution of one species into another species in which the new species is a member of a different taxonomic rank of Family.

3/13/05
As you well know, the evidence of the actual fiat of creation was destroyed in the flood. The evidence the YEC present is flood evidence.
Although, Polonium Halo's can be considered as evidence of a rapid fromation of the Basalts.

3/13/05
1. The amount of dust on the moon's surface -
2. Lack of meteorites in the geologic column
3. The Poynting-Robertson Effect on Cosmic Dust Sphericals
4. The Abundance of Short-period comets v.s. its average life-span
5. Io being geologically active
6. The Moon, i.e. Lunar Material with high levels of radioactivity
7. Types of Radiation that shouldn't be in existence on the Moon
8. Turbulance & instability of Saturn's Rings
9. Existence of 3 Giant Dust Rings that circle the solar system
10. Rock-Flow of Lunar Material v.s. craters of the Moon
11. Lack of emitted Neutrinos from the sun
12. The chemical composition of stars being roughly the same
13. Star clusters gravitationally bound yet containing stars with vastly different thurmonuclear-burn
sequences
14. Paradox between the expected nuclear-fusion temperature history of the sun and the temperature
history of the Earth
15. Controversy over our Shrinking Sun
16. The White Dwarf Star Sirius B Mystery
17. The Missing Mass Problem
18. Velocity of Light Deccaying with Time idea
19. Lack of Helium in Earth's Atmosphere
20. Problems with Radioactive Clocks
21. Age of Diatoms v.s. fossil skeleton of a Baleen Whale on End
22. Lack of erosional lines separating depositional formations
23. Polystrate Fossils in Sedimentary Rocks
24. Tilt of the Earth Axis based on Astronomical Evidence via. Eudoxus, Stonehenge & Solar Temple of
Amen-Ra
25. Geocentric Pleochroic Polonium Halos in Precambrian Granite & Coalified Wood
26. The Second Law of Thermodynamics
27. Oil & Natural Gas - their existence
28. Carbon-14 Disintegration v.s. production
29. Decay of the Earth's Magnetic Moment
30. Dinosaur Tracks & Man Tracks at Paluxy - Generally no longer used by most creationists
31. Large Stars - Mass problems
32. Delta Filling - Rate of growth of delta
33. Ocean Chemical Concentrations - Much less than what they should be
34. Erosion of the Continents - Problems with supposed time involved
35. History - Record of man's existence
36. Dendrochonology - Age of trees much less than what they could be
37. Sea Ooze - Lack of sea ooze on ocean floors
38. Rotation of the Earth - Rotation much to fast by evolutionary standards
39. Ocean Sediment - Rate of sediment added to the oceans precludes an old ocean
40. Volcanic Water & Rocks - Time problem based on present rate of rock accretion
41. Mutation load - Lack of it indicates biological world couln't have vast antiquity
42. Population Statistics
43. Earth Heat - Earth young based on considerations of existing temperature gradient in the earth and its
rate of cooling
44. The existence of Lunar Inert Gases
45. Stalagmites & Stalactites
46. The existence & depth of topsoil
47. Certain Geological features a) unconsolidated rock b) various fossils & minerals & their current rate of
formation c) the lack of uniformitarian horizontal layers of sedimentary rocks blending & d) meandering
serpentine course of many rivers and canyons
48. Niagra Falls and the rate of its edge wearing away
49. The existence of Hydrogen still in the universe
50. The existence of Atmospheric Oxygen
51. Grand Canyon Dating
52. Dating of the Cardenas Basalts
53. Basalts on the Rim of the Grand Canyon
54. Age of Meteorites/Earth & Allende
55. Recent Dating of Civilization
56. Plate Tectonics and the age of the Earth
57. Salt in the Ocean
58. Rocks on the Earth's Surface
59. Various Surface Features of the Earth (such as ripple marks, raindrop impressions, animal tracks)
60. Bioturbation - Deficiency of evidence of living communities within a layer of rock
61. Lack of soil layers anywhere in the geologic column
62. Undisturbed Bedding Planes
63. Soft-Sediment Deformation
64. Clastic Dikes
65. Limited extent of unconformities
66. Lack of evidence of in situ petrified tree stumps
67. Escape of methane from Titan
68. The Recession of the Moon
69. The presence of star clusters
70. The sudden appearance of Advanced Life forms
71. The permanence of prototypes
72. Absence of Transitional Forms
73. The Nature of Fossilization & the Fossils themselves
74. Preservation of Soft Parts
75. Sirius B White Dwarf & observation

3/13/05
The questions/answers have been posted here because they are a stumbling block for the evos and all should be able to see them...unless you are in favor of censoring anything that disagrees with your particular point of view.

3/12/05
he evidence suggest a common creator.
The evidence that you lined up while leaving out the huge gaps in the fossil record....was deposited during the flood of Noah. Get it right.

You see, we/us creationist look at the evidence, we don't leave it out like you falsely claim. We also don't believe that Adam and Eve were a result of spontaneous generation as you also falsely claim but rather was an act of special creation.

3/9/05
Here we go again...seems like palmera thinks he's dropping something new on all of us by claiming there are two creation stories.
Hint palmera...the two creation stories concept was addressed well over 100 years ago. It's now 2005.

3/7/05
With Genesis we have an eyewitness...and to many the scientific facts confirm Genesis.

3/6/05
last I recall juliod the bible says Adam was formed from the dust the Eve from Adams rib...not evolution juliod.

That is what the bible says...not me

What I see in this admittedly small sample is assertions, reference to a book, "common sense" thought experiments like trying to fold rocks, ad hoc explanations, lists of other people's ideas (which I don't quite understand--e.g. 58. rocks on the earth's surface [how does the presence of rocks argue for a flood?]), but nothing I recognize as data. Perhaps, if you were to elaborate on some of your assertions (like rocks on the earth's sufrace), and tell us what data you are referring to, we could assess the validity of the data.

We have done this with the polonium haloes that you mentioned (as have others), showing that they are unlikely to be polonium haloes, and that the conclusion is unwarranted that billions of polonium atoms, all clumped together in a microscopically small dot, were trapped in rocks during the earth's formation. This is why the data are necessary. Your assertion (ie Gentry's assertion) that "polonium haloes prove the earth was formed suddenly" does not stand up to scrutiny of the data. Sure, we can choose to favor the idea that god did it, but the data don't force us to this conclusion because perfectly natural, boring, every-day mechanisms explain the observations perfectly well.

All of this aside, you should feel free to treat us like slow learners, and spell out the information step by step, to be sure we'll get it. If there really is so much YEC data, then you should be able to do this easily.

[YEC]

sigh, jose, I'm now forced to handle you in the approporiate way...

[YEC]

sigh, jose, I'm now forced to handle you in the approporiate way...

Welcome to the ignore list....see ya!

[ST88]

As a moderator you should know about the problems associated with your assertions as presented above.

Just for fun, and just to move along the debate, point them out for us so that we can understand your position.

For the info you want...go read my post.

Please provide a link to the post you are talking about.

[Corvus]

Indeed, please do as ST88 asks, YEC. But I also wish to make some more comments.

sigh, jose, I'm now forced to handle you in the approporiate way...

Welcome to the ignore list....see ya!

YEC, for a very long time, I have been observing you. You and your actions have presented a dilemma for me. Though you rarely completely step out of line of the rules, you certainly flouted them. Your lack of respect for the other members of this board is most evident in your casual dismissal of the perfectly reasonable arguments and the obnoxious way in which you wave away direct and relevant answers to any of your questions. Jose's patience with you seems interminable. Mine is not, and its seems neither is that of the many people, Christians and nontheists, evolutionists and creationists alike, who have a problem with your methodology, and have called our attention to it. We may have initially been willing to tolerate your incivility in the interest of the lessons that ensued from the highly knowleadgable forum participants about the respective topics, but we feel you have taken advantage of our leniency for far too long.

It is obvious from posts such as that which I have quoted that your goal is not to indulge in thoughtful and constructive debate, but destructive immaturity.

Since you appear to have trouble reading long posts, I will summarise: Many (and this is unanimous amongst the moderators) believe you may be far too pernicious to be allowed to remain on this forum. One false move and I will ban you even unto the end of days. A false move would include contesting this post within this thread.

Seeing as I have never before banned someone, this presents an excellent opportunity for me to learn.

[axeplayer]

easy there corvus. if you didnt want anyone to put anyone else on their ignore list, it shouldnt have been made in the website. also don't think just because you can use big words and sound like shakespeare that you're more important than anyone else on this forum.

[Dilettante]

easy there corvus. if you didnt want anyone to put anyone else on their ignore list, it shouldnt have been made in the website. also don't think just because you can use big words and sound like shakespeare that you're more important than anyone else on this forum.

Corvus is not acting on impulse here. Many people (including myself) have run out of patience with YEC's strategy of ignoring contrary evidence and giving flippant answers to serious objections. Debating involves much more than just systematically contradicting your opponent.

It's not a matter of who uses big words and who doesn't, but who is here to debate in a civil way and who isn't. Corvus does not feel superior to anyone, but as a moderator, he must enforce the rules.

[Corvus]

easy there corvus. if you didnt want anyone to put anyone else on their ignore list, it shouldnt have been made in the website.

This is not about using a feature of the website, axeplayer. This is about behaviour. YEC has been placed on probation yet has not relinquished his unconstructive tactic of ignoring everything other members have to say and not participating in constructive debate.

also don't think just because you can use big words and sound like shakespeare that you're more important than anyone else on this forum.

As flattered as I am to hear that I sound like Shakespeare, I have no idea what you mean. If you, or anyone else, has a problem with me or any other moderator, feel free to private message me and I will respond as promptly as I can.

[otseng]

easy there corvus. if you didnt want anyone to put anyone else on their ignore list, it shouldnt have been made in the website. also don't think just because you can use big words and sound like shakespeare that you're more important than anyone else on this forum.

Putting someone on the ignore list does not violate any rules.

However, it is to be noted that YEC is on probation for many rule violations. And people on probation are watched very closely.

Also, Corvus is not more important than anyone else because he is one of the most eloquent, but it should be noted that he is one of the most powerful since he is an admin.

And also, please note that it is against the rules to challenge any moderating actions in public.

13. Appeals and challenges to decisions made by moderators should not be made in public. The proper channel is to send a PM to a moderator and to discuss it directly and in private.

So, please PM any of the moderators if you have any questions about any moderating actions. Thanks.