Autodidact wrote:Let's assume, Starboard, that science does know how the first self-replicating organism came into existence. It's a mystery, a problem that science has not solved. O.K.? It does not follow that therefore your God magically poofed it into existence. What we have seen up till now, throughout history, is that it means that science needs to keep working on the problem until it figures it out.
A couple of clarifying points. Either God exists or he does not. If he does, he is not "my God", but your God as well. You choose not to believe in him, which is certainly your right, but won't change the reality a whit.
By "your God," I only mean the God that you believe exists.
Second, the possibility of God poofing life into existence through supernatural means is a proposition that entails predictions of what we would expect to find if it were true, just as a naturalistic explanation for life entails predictions.
This is not correct. An all-powerful and unknowable God could do this any way He liked, and in a way that we could not understand or detect. If He wanted to, He could even do so in such a way as to appear to have come about in another way.
The supernatural explanation would expect that life could appear suddenly and complex.
No, not necessarily. God could have preferred to develop it slowly and gradually.
The naturalistic explanation would not. So far, the supernatural explanation conforms to what is observed, so while I agree with you that science should continue to work on the problem, science should also not exclude explanations just because they discomfit the metaphysics of some, like you. Best go where the evidence leads, don't you think, or are you one of those who believes that science should adhere to a philosophic orthodoxy where certain lines of evidence must not be explored?
Science must exclude supernatural explanations, because, by their very nature, they are not susceptible to scientific discovery.
I will just not, however, that science has a history of finding explanations that work, despite this "limitation." I predict that science will continue to do so, in this case and many others.
What you are arguing is God of the Gaps. Not only is it wrong, it's bad theology. Because the more science advances, the more such a God retreats. So it puts you in a position to oppose and dispute the progress of scientific knowledge.
No, actually I am not. The God in the gaps argument is the insertion of God into shrinking gaps in our understanding.
And that is exactly what you are doing. You have found a problem that science has not YET solved, and so you attribute the answer to God-magic.
What you are doing is imposing science in widening gaps of understanding, essentially arguing science in the gaps. You won't be able to see that, of course, because of metaphysical constraints, but that is what is happening.
Exactly. And history shows us that science does a good job of eliminating those gaps. Science can study anything in the natural world. That is its job.
Much better, for a theist, to assume and have faith that God made all of it, the entire universe, set the galaxies spinning, and decreed that E should = m x c squared, and that a thing cannot be both true and false at the same time.
If God did make it, then there should be evidence that he made it.
A truly faithful theist would know that God made it, find the evidence in the thing itself, and not exhibit doubt by searching for scientific support. If God made it, He made the very laws that make science possible. A faithful theist would believe that and proceed on that basis.
The evidence will be in the effects that one would expect if God was responsible. We measure the reality of many things in science by their effects, so why not God?
Because God, by His very nature, is a mystery that people cannot grasp.
The effects we would expect include the sudden appearance of complex life as discussed above.
No, you cannot make any prediction from the hypothesis that God did it. God could create life suddenly, or gradually, or any other way He would like.
Another would be a universe minutely fine tuned for life, which is also what we observe.
This is an interesting subject, but outside the scope of this discussion. I would suggest a separate thread.
Another would be the existence of universal awareness of moral laws, which we also observe.
Again, this is something that science can explain. After all, we're all the same species, and so very much alike. But this too is a subject for a separate thread.
Can I prove God scientifically? Of course not, but then again, scientists can't prove the existence of the multiverse, yet I applaud the exploration of this thesis.
Don't forget, science doesn't prove things; it's all about evidence.
Then you don't have to go around trying to disprove whatever it is that science has just figured out. Because you have faith. You already know that God made it, and you can let science go about figuring out how.
I am not interested in disproving anything that science has reasonably established as truth. What I am not particularly interested in is theological insistence that reality must be purely naturalisitic or theistic. I don't need to. The truth will out. You can stand the truth, can't you?
Yes, you are. Science has established how we get the variety of species on earth, and why they are so well-adapted to their environments. You are trying to disprove this well-established, foundational theory, about the validity of which there is no controversy within the field of Biology.
What you are disputing is philosophy, not science.