second law of thermodynamics (its an easy one)

[gf]

Hello.

I spoke to a Creationist, whom stated that the second law of thermodynamics, goes against Evolution. As the Universe decays.


Now, it dawned on me, that this is not a rare event, as most Creationist proclaim this, not at least, a certain Mr Kent Hovind. So i thought we could have a discussion about this.


The second law of thermodynamics does not claim that everything is "winding down" / decays / crumbles / or similar. What it does state is that you get entropy, and it seems that this is where we get a problem. Either most people do not know what this means, or they dont want to know what it means.

To claim that entropy equals decay, is to go from Physics to Opinion.


And this is the important part of it.
The second law of thermodynamics only states, that entropy occurs in different stages.


And this is it. If you claim, state or otherwise say in any way that it "decays", or "improves", you go from Physics, to your own opinion.



So it does not go against Evolution, it rather enhances evolution, as Evolution also, does not mean improve, but means change.



Opinion anyone ?

Perhaps you need some background information about this, but this is more or less the main thing that most Creationist seems to be confused about.

[Fisherking]

How about showing me a case where the second law doesn't doesn't apply equally well to open systems?

We already did: snowflakes.

How does a snowflake violate the second law of thermodynamics?

If anything violated the second law of thermodynamics, then it wouldn't be a law.

Exactly:

“...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems ... there is somehow associated with the field of far-from equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.� [Dr. John Ross, Harvard scientist (evolutionist), Chemical and Engineering News, vol. 58, July 7, 1980, p. 40]

The interesting thing about the snowflake example is that the reduction in entropy results from a reduction of energy.

The formation of molecules or atoms into geometric patterns such as snowflakes or crystals reflects movement towards equilibrium—a lower energy level, and a more stable arrangement of the molecules or atoms into simple, uniform, repeating structural patterns with minimal complexity, and no function. Living things, on the other hand, do not arrive at and maintain their high levels of order, organization, and complexity in order to achieve thermodynamic equilibrium, but are in fact maintaining far from equilibrium conditions in order to arrive at and maintain those levels. Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

The odd thing here is that people talk about living things and the 2nd Law but looking around I see live animals. I can't deny these live animals. I can also (via technology) see Bacteria and from pictures I've seen virus (I don't have that technology to hand to see virus)

Yes, there is a reason life overcomes the effects (for a while...) of the 2nd law:


"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity
a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.
The earth’s living systems have both of these essential elements. Each living organism’s DNA contains all the code (the “program� or “information�) needed to direct the process of building (or “organizing�) the organism up from seed or cell to a fully functional, mature specimen, complete with all the necessary instructions for maintaining and repairing each of its complex, organized, and integrated component systems. This process continues throughout the life of the organism, essentially building-up and maintaining the organism’s physical structure faster than natural processes (as governed by the 2nd law) can break it down.

Living systems also have the second essential component—their own built-in mechanisms for effectively converting and storing the incoming energy. Plants use photosynthesis to convert the sun’s energy into usable, storable forms (e.g., proteins), while animals use metabolism to further convert and use the stored, usable, energy from the organisms which compose their diets.

So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

[Goat]

How about showing me a case where the second law doesn't doesn't apply equally well to open systems?

We already did: snowflakes.

How does a snowflake violate the second law of thermodynamics?

If anything violated the second law of thermodynamics, then it wouldn't be a law.

Exactly:

“...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems ... there is somehow associated with the field of far-from equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.� [Dr. John Ross, Harvard scientist (evolutionist), Chemical and Engineering News, vol. 58, July 7, 1980, p. 40]

The interesting thing about the snowflake example is that the reduction in entropy results from a reduction of energy.

The formation of molecules or atoms into geometric patterns such as snowflakes or crystals reflects movement towards equilibrium—a lower energy level, and a more stable arrangement of the molecules or atoms into simple, uniform, repeating structural patterns with minimal complexity, and no function. Living things, on the other hand, do not arrive at and maintain their high levels of order, organization, and complexity in order to achieve thermodynamic equilibrium, but are in fact maintaining far from equilibrium conditions in order to arrive at and maintain those levels. Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

The odd thing here is that people talk about living things and the 2nd Law but looking around I see live animals. I can't deny these live animals. I can also (via technology) see Bacteria and from pictures I've seen virus (I don't have that technology to hand to see virus)

Yes, there is a reason life overcomes the effects (for a while...) of the 2nd law:


"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity
a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.

Really?? Can you show me an experment that can demonstrate this? This is an
unsupported assertion.

The earth’s living systems have both of these essential elements. Each living organism’s DNA contains all the code (the “program� or “information�) needed to direct the process of building (or “organizing�) the organism up from seed or cell to a fully functional, mature specimen, complete with all the necessary instructions for maintaining and repairing each of its complex, organized, and integrated component systems. This process continues throughout the life of the organism, essentially building-up and maintaining the organism’s physical structure faster than natural processes (as governed by the 2nd law) can break it down.

Well, I don't consider complex chemistry a 'program' or a 'code'. That is a weak analogy that breaks down under examination. In other words, this arguement is a straw man.

Living systems also have the second essential component—their own built-in mechanisms for effectively converting and storing the incoming energy. Plants use photosynthesis to convert the sun’s energy into usable, storable forms (e.g., proteins), while animals use metabolism to further convert and use the stored, usable, energy from the organisms which compose their diets.

And how does that have anything to do with the 2lot at all? It certainly does not 'violate' it . If anything, it demosntrates that living creatures do not violate the 2LOT.

[/quote]
So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution[/quote]

Well, I would be hard pressed to say that have 'built in programs' or 'information'.

How do you measure and quantify this information?? No one has ever shown a way how to. Live is just chemistry.

[byofrcs]

....


"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity

The ultimate program is very easy to understand and drives all chemistry - the humble valence electrons. Throw a bunch of atoms together and they only form in certain ways according to their bonding behaviour.

That's it. Real simple. Some stuff just stays put whereas stuff like carbon just loves joining with other bits and making bigger stuff.

And so on.

....a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.

As above.

We've already established that the 2nd Law isn't relevant. What exactly are we discussing here ?

I would have thought you would be aware that elements only form with other elements in certain ways. This is the lowest level of "program" in the chemistry of life. The rest of your stuff is thus irrelevant.

[Beastt]

Yes, there is a reason life overcomes the effects (for a while...) of the 2nd law:

No, no, no, no and "no". Life does not "overcome" the effects of the 2LOT. It is exempted from the law by the law itself. The second law of thermodynamics applies only to closed systems.

Let's read that again; 2LOT applies only to closed systems. You keep trying to apply it to open systems.

"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity
a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.
The earth’s living systems have both of these essential elements. Each living organism’s DNA contains all the code (the “program� or “information�) needed to direct the process of building (or “organizing�) the organism up from seed or cell to a fully functional, mature specimen, complete with all the necessary instructions for maintaining and repairing each of its complex, organized, and integrated component systems. This process continues throughout the life of the organism, essentially building-up and maintaining the organism’s physical structure faster than natural processes (as governed by the 2nd law) can break it down.

Living systems also have the second essential component—their own built-in mechanisms for effectively converting and storing the incoming energy. Plants use photosynthesis to convert the sun’s energy into usable, storable forms (e.g., proteins), while animals use metabolism to further convert and use the stored, usable, energy from the organisms which compose their diets.

So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

Again, the law simply does not apply because the law itself makes it very clear that it does not apply to open systems.

It works like this. Suppose we legislate that it is illegal to carry a weapon, concealed within a mode of transportation and then, as a portion of that law, we make an exception for weapons carried in a holster, within the glove compartment of the vehicle. You come along as a law enforcement officer and attempt to claim that I'm violating the law, because I have a gun, carried in a holster, within my glove compartment.

What chance do you stand in court?

Now certainly there is a difference between mans regulations upon himself, and the fundamental processes of nature. However, the laws of thermodynamics rest upon what is shown to be the case -- always observed to be true. And one of the things always observed to be true is that entropy exists within closed systems. As soon as you turn to observe an open system, that law simply doesn't apply. Yet you keep hammering away at this as though if you're persistent, the fundamental dynamics, known as "laws", will change for you because you want to make a point which supports your theistic beliefs. But that's not going to happen. Life on Earth is excluded from the second law of thermodynamics due to the second law of thermodynamics. Your issue was dead before you even started.

[Thought Criminal]

Up until 2 years ago I'd agree panspermia sounded fringe but the compelling theory on the chirality of amino acids from a non-Earth source for the asymmetry and the sheer number of molecules found through spectrography gives huge support to panspermia.

Now the issue is that so far finding amino acids in space is allusive e.g. glycine (the smallest in atom count) looked close but hasn't been proven (oddly enough it isn't chiral). In size of molecules there are larger molecules found in space e.g. cyanopolyyne as well as close family members e.g. amino acetonitrile.

"glycine" (i.e. not L-glycine) just sticks out like a sore thumb in all those L-???? amino acids. To me that's a real clue I can't work around.

This is why I think bootstrap. Space bootstraps the earth with precursors and the environment on Earth takes over but biased towards L-handedness because of the filtration in space.

Not that far-fetched given every atom bigger than Helium on Earth was nucleosynthesized from stars. To me that is incredible to think of that a few 10s of billion years ago every heavy atom in my body was rolling around in a Star.

I'm familiar with the idea that chirality was seeded from space, but while it may well be the case and is certainly plausible, it's not at all needed. The formation of chirality can be explained right here on Earth. Take look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality

TC

[Fisherking]

"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity
a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.(T.W.)

Really?? Can you show me an experment that can demonstrate this? This is an unsupported assertion.

You already did:

Look at a pot full of water.. it is an open system. Heat from an outside source gets applied. The water boils.

..and entropy increased.

The earth’s living systems have both of these essential elements. Each living organism’s DNA contains all the code (the “program� or “information�) needed to direct the process of building (or “organizing�) the organism up from seed or cell to a fully functional, mature specimen, complete with all the necessary instructions for maintaining and repairing each of its complex, organized, and integrated component systems. This process continues throughout the life of the organism, essentially building-up and maintaining the organism’s physical structure faster than natural processes (as governed by the 2nd law) can break it down.(T.W.)

Well, I don't consider complex chemistry a 'program' or a 'code'.

Biologist consider consider DNA to be a program or code.

Living systems also have the second essential component—their own built-in mechanisms for effectively converting and storing the incoming energy. Plants use photosynthesis to convert the sun’s energy into usable, storable forms (e.g., proteins), while animals use metabolism to further convert and use the stored, usable, energy from the organisms which compose their diets.(T.C.)

And how does that have anything to do with the 2lot at all?

"Thermodynamics of Living Systems
Living systems are composed of complex molecular configurations whose total bonding energy is less negative than that of their chemical precursors (e.g., Morowitz's estimate of E = 0.27 ev/atom) and whose thermal and configurational entropies are also less than that of their chemical precursors. Thus, the Gibbs free energy of living systems (see equation 7-6) is quite high relative to the simple compounds from which they are formed. The formation and maintenance of living systems at energy levels well removed from equilibrium requires continuous work to be done on the system, even as maintenance of hot water in a water heater requires that continuous work be done on the system. Securing this continuous work requires energy and/or mass flow through the system, apart from which the system will return to an equilibrium condition (lowest Gibbs free energy, see equations 7-7 and 7-8) with the decomposition of complex molecules into simple ones, just as the hot water in our water heater returns to room temperature once the gas is shut off.

In living plants, the energy flow through the system is supplied principally by solar radiation. In fact, leaves provide relatively large surface areas per unit volume for most plants, allowing them to "capture" the necessary solar energy to maintain themselves far from equilibrium. This solar energy is converted into the necessary useful work (negative Se in equation 7-11) to maintain the plant in its complex, high-energy configuration by a complicated process called photosynthesis. Mass, such as water and carbon dioxide, also flows through plants, providing necessary raw materials, but not energy. In collecting and storing useful energy, plants serve the entire biological world.

For animals, energy flow through the system is provided by eating high energy biomass, either plant or animal. The breaking down of this energy-rich biomass, and the subsequent oxidation of part of it (e.g., carbohydrates), provides a continuous source of energy as well as raw materials. If plants are deprived of sunlight or animals of food, dissipation within the system will surely bring death. Maintenance of the complex, high-energy condition associated with life is not possible apart from a continuous source of energy. A source of energy alone is not sufficient, however, to explain the origin or maintenance of living systems. The additional crucial factor is a means of converting this energy into the necessary useful work to build and maintain complex living systems from the simple biomonomers that constitute their molecular building blocks.

An automobile with an internal combustion engine, transmission, and drive chain provides the necessary mechanism for converting the energy in gasoline into comfortable transportation. Without such an "energy converter," however, obtaining transportation from gasoline would be impossible. In a similar way, food would do little for a man whose stomach, intestines, liver, or pancreas were removed. Without these, he would surely die even though he continued to eat. Apart from a mechanism to couple the available energy to the necessary work, high-energy biomass is insufficient to sustain a living system far from equilibrium. In the case of living systems such a coupling mechanism channels the energy along specific chemical pathways to accomplish a very specific type of work. We therefore conclude that, given the availability of energy and an appropriate coupling mechanism, the maintenance of a living system far from equilibrium presents no thermodynamic problems."http://www.ldolphin.org/mystery/chapt7.html

It certainly does not 'violate' it . If anything, it demosntrates that living creatures do not violate the 2LOT.

I would respectfully ask that those that respond to my posts actually read them. ------>"So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

[Thought Criminal]

It certainly does not 'violate' it . If anything, it demosntrates that living creatures do not violate the 2LOT.

I would respectfully ask that those that respond to my posts actually read them. ------>"So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

Why are you wasting our time with arguments we've just refuted?

The 2nd law only applies to closed systems. So long as an organism is not thermodynamically isolated, it remains an open system. If it is isolated, it dies. Very simple.

TC

[Fisherking]

We've already established that the 2nd Law isn't relevant.

Please direct me to this information. There are several claims the 2nd law isn't relavant, but not a single contributor has shown how that is so.

[Furrowed Brow]

We've already established that the 2nd Law isn't relevant.

Please direct me to this information. There are several claims the 2nd law isn't relavant, but not a single contributor has shown how that is so.

Hello Fisherking,

As ever you are persistent. Why don't you start your search by scrolling up about 2 inches and adressing Though Criminal's point.

The 2nd law only applies to closed systems. So long as an organism is not thermodynamically isolated, it remains an open system. If it is isolated, it dies. Very simple.

The subject is done and dusted unless you can show why we are dealing with a closed system. Good luck.

[Goat]

"any increase in organized complexity (i.e., decrease in entropy) invariably requires two additional factors besides an open system and an available energy supply. These are:

a “program� (information) to direct the growth in organized complexity
a mechanism for storing and converting the incoming energy.(T.W.)

Really?? Can you show me an experment that can demonstrate this? This is an unsupported assertion.

You already did:

Look at a pot full of water.. it is an open system. Heat from an outside source gets applied. The water boils.

..and entropy increased.

The earth’s living systems have both of these essential elements. Each living organism’s DNA contains all the code (the “program� or “information�) needed to direct the process of building (or “organizing�) the organism up from seed or cell to a fully functional, mature specimen, complete with all the necessary instructions for maintaining and repairing each of its complex, organized, and integrated component systems. This process continues throughout the life of the organism, essentially building-up and maintaining the organism’s physical structure faster than natural processes (as governed by the 2nd law) can break it down.(T.W.)

Well, I don't consider complex chemistry a 'program' or a 'code'.

Biologist consider consider DNA to be a program or code.

Living systems also have the second essential component—their own built-in mechanisms for effectively converting and storing the incoming energy. Plants use photosynthesis to convert the sun’s energy into usable, storable forms (e.g., proteins), while animals use metabolism to further convert and use the stored, usable, energy from the organisms which compose their diets.(T.C.)

And how does that have anything to do with the 2lot at all?

"Thermodynamics of Living Systems
Living systems are composed of complex molecular configurations whose total bonding energy is less negative than that of their chemical precursors (e.g., Morowitz's estimate of E = 0.27 ev/atom) and whose thermal and configurational entropies are also less than that of their chemical precursors. Thus, the Gibbs free energy of living systems (see equation 7-6) is quite high relative to the simple compounds from which they are formed. The formation and maintenance of living systems at energy levels well removed from equilibrium requires continuous work to be done on the system, even as maintenance of hot water in a water heater requires that continuous work be done on the system. Securing this continuous work requires energy and/or mass flow through the system, apart from which the system will return to an equilibrium condition (lowest Gibbs free energy, see equations 7-7 and 7-8) with the decomposition of complex molecules into simple ones, just as the hot water in our water heater returns to room temperature once the gas is shut off.

In living plants, the energy flow through the system is supplied principally by solar radiation. In fact, leaves provide relatively large surface areas per unit volume for most plants, allowing them to "capture" the necessary solar energy to maintain themselves far from equilibrium. This solar energy is converted into the necessary useful work (negative Se in equation 7-11) to maintain the plant in its complex, high-energy configuration by a complicated process called photosynthesis. Mass, such as water and carbon dioxide, also flows through plants, providing necessary raw materials, but not energy. In collecting and storing useful energy, plants serve the entire biological world.

For animals, energy flow through the system is provided by eating high energy biomass, either plant or animal. The breaking down of this energy-rich biomass, and the subsequent oxidation of part of it (e.g., carbohydrates), provides a continuous source of energy as well as raw materials. If plants are deprived of sunlight or animals of food, dissipation within the system will surely bring death. Maintenance of the complex, high-energy condition associated with life is not possible apart from a continuous source of energy. A source of energy alone is not sufficient, however, to explain the origin or maintenance of living systems. The additional crucial factor is a means of converting this energy into the necessary useful work to build and maintain complex living systems from the simple biomonomers that constitute their molecular building blocks.

An automobile with an internal combustion engine, transmission, and drive chain provides the necessary mechanism for converting the energy in gasoline into comfortable transportation. Without such an "energy converter," however, obtaining transportation from gasoline would be impossible. In a similar way, food would do little for a man whose stomach, intestines, liver, or pancreas were removed. Without these, he would surely die even though he continued to eat. Apart from a mechanism to couple the available energy to the necessary work, high-energy biomass is insufficient to sustain a living system far from equilibrium. In the case of living systems such a coupling mechanism channels the energy along specific chemical pathways to accomplish a very specific type of work. We therefore conclude that, given the availability of energy and an appropriate coupling mechanism, the maintenance of a living system far from equilibrium presents no thermodynamic problems."http://www.ldolphin.org/mystery/chapt7.html

It certainly does not 'violate' it . If anything, it demosntrates that living creatures do not violate the 2LOT.

I would respectfully ask that those that respond to my posts actually read them. ------>"So we can see that living things do not in fact “violate� the 2nd law, nor are they excepted from or “irrelevant to� the 2nd law, but they actually have built-in programs (information) and energy conversion mechanisms that allow them to build up and maintain their physical structures in spite of the 2nd law’s effects (which ultimately do prevail, as each organism eventually deteriorates and dies)." Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions
about Evolution

No, entropy did not increase IN THE POT. You got energy from an outside source, and therefore IN THE POT, heat increased, not dissipated. The 'environment' I am specifiying is the pot, not the heating eleiment.

Somehow, your comments lead me to believe that you misunderstand the 2LOT.