Creation vs Evolution

[acehighinfinity]

Hey yall,

I watched the debate video on Ken Ham vs Bill Nye. Observational Science vs The Holy Bible - creationist. Youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_04S0fYU7FI

I have numbered some of them for Science (evolution) a. and b. for Creation/Holy Bible. I do have a lot of questions here, and if you don't mind answering them that would be great:

1.a - How did consciousness(mind) come from 'Matter'? Bill Nye and many scientist are unable to answer this.
1.b - Genesis 1:27 "So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them." and Genesis 3:21-24 "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.� - Man was cursed with the knowledge of Good and Evil (consciousness/mind).

2.a - What scientific evidence support do you have for the Age Of Earth? 4.5 Billion years old (Earth/Universe).
2.b - The holy bible works out to 6000-10000yrs for the age of Earth.

3. - How did the Atom before the Big Bang get there? We know the Big Bang is only a theory.

4.a - How were dinosaurs killed? There are two theories for Science; meteorite and disease.
4.b - Genesis 6:7-8 " So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them..." - A global flood is the very cause.

5. If Science believes homo-sapiens existed an estimate of 200,000yrs ago and Earth is around 4.5 Billions years old. - Why is there a long period (massive gap) of years between Earth and homo-sapiens?

6. Is the moon in its correct place as we see it today if 4.5 Billion years was true? According to the moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon. "The Moon's linear distance from Earth is currently increasing at a rate of 3.82±0.07 cm per year, but this rate is not constant" - Why do they say the moon is moving away from Earth but its not constant? Does the moon have a start and stop button? The calculation does not add up.

[Wolfbitn]

How does "Man was cursed with the knowledge of Good and Evil" explain the origin of consciousness?

Statements like that, and ones like "God created man" or "God created animals" and "God created the Sun," don't explain anything. They have no more explanatory value and are no more believable, than "Moloch created man" or "Raven spit on the dry earth to create the seas."

And then how do YOU propose that chemical reaction alone causes "consciousness"? This should be really good

[Danmark]

How does "Man was cursed with the knowledge of Good and Evil" explain the origin of consciousness?

Statements like that, and ones like "God created man" or "God created animals" and "God created the Sun," don't explain anything. They have no more explanatory value and are no more believable, than "Moloch created man" or "Raven spit on the dry earth to create the seas."

And then how do YOU propose that chemical reaction alone causes "consciousness"? This should be really good

Despite your typical one liner taunt and the magical thinking you demonstrate by the "god did it" approach, the answer is elementary and easily proved. Even an engineer can understand it:

The human brain is composed of about 100 billion nerve cells (neurons) interconnected by trillions of connections, called synapses. On average, each connection transmits about one signal per second. Some specialized connections send up to 1,000 signals per second. “Somehow… that’s producing thought,� says Charles Jennings, director of neurotechnology at the MIT McGovern Institute for Brain Research.

Given the physical complexity of what’s happening inside your head, it’s not easy to trace a thought from beginning to end. “That’s a little like asking where the forest begins. Is it with the first leaf, or the tip of the first root?� says Jennings. Simpler, then to start by considering perceptions—“thoughts� that are directly triggered by external stimuli—a feather brushes your skin, you see these words on the computer screen, you hear a phone ring. Each of these events triggers a series of signals in the brain.
....
https://engineering.mit.edu/ask/what-are-thoughts-made

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

The alternate, magical thinking 'soul' theory is easily debunked when we see how easily this 'soul' is affected by alcohol or other chemicals, not to mention physical trauma.

If you can demonstrate that consciousness and mental activity is unaffected by the entire removal of the human brain, please do so.

"This should be really good."

[Wolfbitn]

How does "Man was cursed with the knowledge of Good and Evil" explain the origin of consciousness?

Statements like that, and ones like "God created man" or "God created animals" and "God created the Sun," don't explain anything. They have no more explanatory value and are no more believable, than "Moloch created man" or "Raven spit on the dry earth to create the seas."

And then how do YOU propose that chemical reaction alone causes "consciousness"? This should be really good

Despite your typical one liner taunt and the magical thinking you demonstrate by the "god did it" approach, the answer is elementary and easily proved. Even an engineer can understand it:

The human brain is composed of about 100 billion nerve cells (neurons) interconnected by trillions of connections, called synapses. On average, each connection transmits about one signal per second. Some specialized connections send up to 1,000 signals per second. “Somehow… that’s producing thought,� says Charles Jennings, director of neurotechnology at the MIT McGovern Institute for Brain Research.

In other words he sees something going on that he doesn't understand... thank you for explaining it to me, but we both already knew this.

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

But what you just posted said HE doesnt know... now all of a sudden "WE KNOW"? I dont think so. SHOW us how "WE know" when we see in this post even the good doctor doesnt know.


Peer reviewed source please.

[Danmark]

But what you just posted said HE doesnt know... now all of a sudden "WE KNOW"? I dont think so. SHOW us how "WE know" when we see in this post even the good doctor doesnt know.


Peer reviewed source please.

There is a challenge on the table. I can understand your desire to change the subject, but please respond if you can:

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

The alternate, magical thinking 'soul' theory is easily debunked when we see how easily this 'soul' is affected by alcohol or other chemicals, not to mention physical trauma.

If you can demonstrate that consciousness and mental activity is unaffected by the entire removal of the human brain, please do so.

[Wolfbitn]

But what you just posted said HE doesnt know... now all of a sudden "WE KNOW"? I dont think so. SHOW us how "WE know" when we see in this post even the good doctor doesnt know.


Peer reviewed source please.

There is a challenge on the table. I can understand your desire to change the subject, but please respond if you can:

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

The alternate, magical thinking 'soul' theory is easily debunked when we see how easily this 'soul' is affected by alcohol or other chemicals, not to mention physical trauma.

If you can demonstrate that consciousness and mental activity is unaffected by the entire removal of the human brain, please do so.

In other words, you STILL dont "know" how chemical electrical impulses create a thought. Has this doctor who states that it "just somehow does it" created a thought? Reproduced these impulses and chemical reactions?

You have shown us a doctor who said "it SOMEHOW happens, i dunno", so here's your challenge... IF you want to stick to your position, Show us with a peer reviewed article, the process of creating consciousness in a lab. Or show us with a peer reviewed article the mathematical equation for doing so... or is there just absolutely none of this supporting you?

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 35 by Wolfbitn]

There is a challenge on the table. I can understand your desire to change the subject, but please respond if you can:

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

The alternate, magical thinking 'soul' theory is easily debunked when we see how easily this 'soul' is affected by alcohol or other chemicals, not to mention physical trauma.

If you can demonstrate that consciousness and mental activity is unaffected by the entire removal of the human brain, please do so.

[Joab]

But what you just posted said HE doesnt know... now all of a sudden "WE KNOW"? I dont think so. SHOW us how "WE know" when we see in this post even the good doctor doesnt know.


Peer reviewed source please.

There is a challenge on the table. I can understand your desire to change the subject, but please respond if you can:

This goes far beyond mere theory. Though one of the greatest mysteries in the universe is the exact process of conscious thought, we do know absolutely that when portions of 'mere matter,' brain tissue' are removed or damaged thoughts and consciousness are affected. Thus we know there is a material basis for thought.

The alternate, magical thinking 'soul' theory is easily debunked when we see how easily this 'soul' is affected by alcohol or other chemicals, not to mention physical trauma.

If you can demonstrate that consciousness and mental activity is unaffected by the entire removal of the human brain, please do so.

In other words, you STILL dont "know" how chemical electrical impulses create a thought. Has this doctor who states that it "just somehow does it" created a thought? Reproduced these impulses and chemical reactions?

You have shown us a doctor who said "it SOMEHOW happens, i dunno", so here's your challenge... IF you want to stick to your position, Show us with a peer reviewed article, the process of creating consciousness in a lab. Or show us with a peer reviewed article the mathematical equation for doing so... or is there just absolutely none of this supporting you?

There's no need for peer review, it's simple enough for even "anybody" to understand.

Lab tech walks into lab.
Consciousness in lab.

Lab tech walks out of lab.
No consciousness in lab.

[acehighinfinity]

You can label it however you want to satisfy your ego.

Moderator Comment

Please do not make any comments of a personal nature.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Having a line in a book that says essentially, "because magic" isn't an answer.

You tell me if he could of used any word besides labeling a book (assuming he meant the bible) 'MAGIC!'? Do you call that a clean debate?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 27 by NoisForm]

When you quote the Bible, even if we were to assume it were true (which isn't the case in this sub forum), it says nothing about HOW consciousness arose. It merely says that God did it - that's it. Where does the scripture speak of 'how' this occurred? Where is the explanation of how? There isn't one. That is, it claims knowledge of where consciousness came from (a god), but not 'how'. Science on the other hand claims it 'comes from' the brain - also, it doesn't know quite how, -yet-, so it doesn't claim to. So, neither of us know how, we simply claim two different sources.

Genesis 1:26-27 "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.� 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:8-9 "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
GOD created mankind his image/likeness. If GOD had no mind (consciousness - thinking) to begin with then mankind wouldn't have one either. Man was created with a pure mind; no fear and unashamed(nakedness) until they disobeyed GOD and ate from the forbidden fruit of knowledge of Good And Evil. That was when they experienced a whole new life of being exposed to nakedness and fear so they hid away from GOD.

[NoisForm]

[Replying to post 27 by NoisForm]

...it says nothing about HOW consciousness arose. It merely says that God did it - that's it.
Where does the scripture speak of 'how' this occurred? Where is the explanation of how? There isn't one... So, neither of us know how, we simply claim two different sources.

Genesis 1:26-27...
Genesis 2:8-9...
If GOD had no mind (consciousness - thinking) to begin with then mankind wouldn't have one either.

I appreciate the attempt, but you don't seem to have read what I wrote (?) - at least, you didn't respond to what you quoted.

I'm familiar with the Christian Bible, and with Genesis in particular, and have not come across any explanation within it as to how this deity did anything at all. It claims that (he) did do a lot of things, but never a hint as to how. That is - no explanation, no explanatory power. 'He' just did. I'm afraid 'God did it' doesn't actually explain anything - no more than 'the brain did it'.

As I mentioned, an explanation is needed to explain how something occurs (obviously). Since you're original question was, "How did consciousness(mind) come from 'Matter'?", I presume you were looking to answer how, not where did it originate or from whom (since neither of those explain how). In the Bible, no explanation of how is attempted. I have to conclude therefor that no Christian knows how consciousness came about - same as with everyone else.