What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckel’s many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #41

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 39 by JoeyKnothead]
JoeyKnothead wrote:What I can't understand is Christians frettin' on who's lyin' and who ain't whenever the word science, evolution, or ducks gets mentioned.
Who's fretting about who's lying and who isn't?
We need to look around for these guy.
Do you think if we started looking, we could perhaps find less than say 99.9%?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #42

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to post 31 by ttruscott]
The hottest example is Lenski's long term experiment, overshadowing the previous experiments with fruit flies.

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Post #43

Post by Willum »

So your premise is a small number of people define an entire area of science.

More importantly, that mistakes people make define the entire discipline... even should they be corrected, or at least discovered, then corrected later...

I assume you don't travel because you will fall off the edge of the Earth, or be eaten by dragons.

Googling the science of evolution yields great dividends. I wonder you explain whale pelvises, vestigial tails, a nervous system that points the wrong way etc..

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sc ... +evolution

You really want to discredit mounds of evidence based on the mistakes of a few.

You WILL forgive us then if we discredit a single book full of anecdotes based on the deliberate lies about twelve folks and a non-existent teacher. Especially since there is no other evidence.

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Post #44

Post by Zzyzx »

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theStudent wrote:
Since you are new, I'll be kind


Since YOU are new here (19 days does not constitute long-term membership), I will be kind and point out that civility is required and that a condescending attitude is not being kind, but being foolish.

Debate the ISSUES – not personalities.

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Re: What If...?

Post #45

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote:Do you have a problem with being challenged?
I was challenged?
I missed it then. Please relay your challenge again so that I can address it.
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Post #46

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to post 40 by theStudent]
My friend, to answer your question, which obviously permeates the entire post.
Quote:
Then what is your objective in this thread?

If it hasn't become obvious by now, I'm sorry, but I'll have to use your line.
I guess you will have to follow me to find out. Smile
Ok, so I answered your question and you avoided mine. I guess we are done then.

I'm starting to get the impression that you just wanted to debate whether evolution is a correct theory. That's fine and I would have appreciated you just saying that. I can be a little thick sometimes and not see the forest for the trees.

I think I misunderstood the point of your OP and thought you were going to try to get to "so since evolution could be false, ...." . I really wanted to see the argument between the 'false' and the '...'. My bad.

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Re: What If...?

Post #47

Post by theStudent »

Clownboat wrote:
theStudent wrote:Do you have a problem with being challenged?
I was challenged?
I missed it then. Please relay your challenge again so that I can address it.
The challenge is general, not personal.
We are on a debate forum.
If a person says something, and someone opposes it, it can be considered a challenge. Which could amount to challenging a person, or their statements.
If you are debating, feel free to respond to anything I say.
What I say isn't (for the most part) to any one individual.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #48

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to theStudent]
theStudent wrote: And what if Darwin, and others lied?


What if all of the thousands of researchers over the last century that have transformed Darwin's original thesis on how species evolve over time into the modern scientific theory of evolution and natural selection that is now the cornerstone of modern biology... uniformly all lied? As opposed to the followers of Jesus who claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected from the dead and then subsequently fly away... you mean? If Darwin was wrong then further investigation into his ideas would have reached that conclusion. Darwin could have been wrong, but he wasn't lying. And further investigation into his ideas have established rather overwhelmingly, that Darwin was genuinely on to something.

There HAVE been examples of falsification undertaken by individual researchers in various fields that have occurred during the course of research and study, of course. But since falsified research inevitably produces bogus results by other researchers when attempting to use falsified data, the falsification of data is inevitably exposed. Falsifying data is the death of career in science.

SCIENTIFIC THEORY

Wikipedia
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.

It is important to note that the definition of a "scientific theory" (often ambiguously contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity, including in this page) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from, and in contrast to, the common vernacular usage of the word "theory". As used in everyday non-scientific speech, "theory" implies that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative guess, conjecture, or hypothesis; such a usage is the opposite of a scientific theory. These different usages are comparable to the differing, and often opposing, usages of the term "prediction" in science (less ambiguously called a "scientific prediction") versus "prediction" in non-scientific vernacular speech, the latter of which may even imply a mere hope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Does that computer you are sitting at actually work? What about your smart phone? Our modern technology is based on well established scientific theory. Nobody lied!
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Re: What If...?

Post #49

Post by PghPanther »

[Replying to post 1 by theStudent]

Even if evolution through natural selection of common ancestry was completely falsified by science that does not mean the claim of creationism wins by default as being reality.

Creationism has the task of validating itself as a claim independent of whether evolution is true or false and it doesn't even have a working model to go with so good luck with that claim....

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Post #50

Post by theStudent »

benchwarmer wrote: [Replying to post 40 by theStudent]
My friend, to answer your question, which obviously permeates the entire post.
Quote:
Then what is your objective in this thread?

If it hasn't become obvious by now, I'm sorry, but I'll have to use your line.
I guess you will have to follow me to find out. Smile
Ok, so I answered your question and you avoided mine. I guess we are done then.

I'm starting to get the impression that you just wanted to debate whether evolution is a correct theory. That's fine and I would have appreciated you just saying that. I can be a little thick sometimes and not see the forest for the trees.

I think I misunderstood the point of your OP and thought you were going to try to get to "so since evolution could be false, ...." . I really wanted to see the argument between the 'false' and the '...'. My bad.
Sorry I missed your post - I just noticed it.

I was really thinking you understood, until I read on.

I thought not just the OP, but the posts that followed would have made it clear, and that in time you would see.
I was actually wondering if you read the post through. You know, it happens that sometimes we do skim through posts.

To be clear - not
whether evolution is a correct theory.
but rather I wanted to make it clear that evolution has not been established as a fact, regarding the origin of life on earth.
That's all I was dealing with - the origin of life.
The reason for the thread goes a bit deeper though, but I'll just provide a hint, which I don't think is hard to spot. Read Post 41.

Also, if there are questions you wanted to ask, and feel, I was avoiding them - feel free to ask me any questions you like.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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