What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #571

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote:
Talishi wrote:
theStudent wrote: So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?
After Karl Popper revolutionized the scientific method, we don't prove anything anymore. A scientist like Darwin makes a claim that animals replicate with changes, and their offspring compete in a niche, and over deep time this is sufficient to explain speciation. Then researchers go about trying to demonstrate a flaw in that theory.
I understand.
I would suggest though, that if all possibilities are not considered, it can be the tendency to conclde that it is a "fact", because they don't find any evidence that would prove it wrong.
In that regard, I would say that it is a claim - in the same way that they refer to religious beliefs as claims.
What you are missing is that the scientific claim has never been falsified whilst every religious claim that actually proposes something has been.

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Post #572

Post by RonE »

In another topic "Can Science Prove Supernatural Claims" theStudent brought in the work of Francis S. Collins as support for his argument.

Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D. is the leader of the Human Genome Project, ex-atheist, now christian, who said:
"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings."

Christopher Hitchens referred to Francis Collins as a 'Great American' and stated that Collins was one of the most devout believers he had ever met.

IMHO, theStudent qualifies as an evolution denier, and a supporter of ID which are exactly who Collins is speaking of in the quote above. TheStudent has show cased as many off-the-wall Watchtower style arguments against evolution he can in this topic. They have all failed, hopefully everyone who has viewed this topic can see through his failed arguments.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Post #573

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 569 by RonE]

A follow-up to my previous post:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scienti ... _Darwinism

The link above takes you to a wikipedia article about a four-day, word-of-mouth petition of scientists in support of evolution. It was started 2005 by archaeologist R. Joe Brandon in response to the Discovery Institute's 2001 petition A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.

A total of 7,733 scientists signed a statement affirming their support for evolution over a 4-day period. Compared to the deceptive Discovery Institute's 2001 petition A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism which got 761 signatures in 11 years.

Please go to the link, read the petition, read it's history and it's results.

Then make a note of the link so the next time an evolution denier is bragging about their 700-761 scientist signatures you can be prepared to debunk them.

O:)
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Post #574

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 567 by man]

That's a good example.
Only you may need some binoculars to actually get a good view of the action.
The cannons on the religious side aren't missing - they hit their target every time.

Here, use the binoculars...
Truth does not come after discovered facts. Truth is absolute - it does not change. See what Jesus said at John 17:17.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #575

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 569 by RonE]
RonE wrote:IMHO, theStudent qualifies as an evolution denier, and a supporter of ID which are exactly who Collins is speaking of in the quote above. TheStudent has show cased as many off-the-wall Watchtower style arguments against evolution he can in this topic. They have all failed, hopefully everyone who has viewed this topic can see through his failed arguments.
OPINION noted.
Only, an opinion does not qualify as something that can fail anything.
What can cause an argument to fail, is an arguments of evidence against it, not opinionated comments. :D
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #576

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 572 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 569 by RonE]
RonE wrote:IMHO, theStudent qualifies as an evolution denier, and a supporter of ID which are exactly who Collins is speaking of in the quote above. TheStudent has show cased as many off-the-wall Watchtower style arguments against evolution he can in this topic. They have all failed, hopefully everyone who has viewed this topic can see through his failed arguments.
OPINION noted.
Only, an opinion does not qualify as something that can fail anything.
What can cause an argument to fail, is an arguments of evidence against it, not opinionated comments. :D
Yes, it's not my opinion that fails. It's your arguments that have failed because of the evidence presented against them.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Post #577

Post by H.sapiens »

RonE wrote: [Replying to post 569 by RonE]

A follow-up to my previous post:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scienti ... _Darwinism

The link above takes you to a wikipedia article about a four-day, word-of-mouth petition of scientists in support of evolution. It was started 2005 by archaeologist R. Joe Brandon in response to the Discovery Institute's 2001 petition A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.

A total of 7,733 scientists signed a statement affirming their support for evolution over a 4-day period. Compared to the deceptive Discovery Institute's 2001 petition A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism which got 761 signatures in 11 years.

Please go to the link, read the petition, read it's history and it's results.

Then make a note of the link so the next time an evolution denier is bragging about their 700-761 scientist signatures you can be prepared to debunk them.

O:)
... and while your at it, check out "Project Steve."

It should also be noted that after you dismiss the non bio-sci types and the foreigners, only 105 US biologists were left as Darwin Dissenters,

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Post #578

Post by man »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 567 by man]

That's a good example.
Only you may need some binoculars to actually get a good view of the action.
The cannons on the religious side aren't missing - they hit their target every time.

Here, use the binoculars...
Truth does not come after discovered facts. Truth is absolute - it does not change. See what Jesus said at John 17:17.
It doesn't matter what you think anyway, you are on sciences side whether you like it or not, unless you think Hellfire missiles, drones, ICBMs and cruise missiles are made by god.

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Post #579

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 575 by man]
man wrote:It doesn't matter what you think anyway, you are on sciences side whether you like it or not, unless you think Hellfire missiles, drones, ICBMs and cruise missiles are made by god.
You believe we have brains, don't you? But you don't believe our brains are made of stone, do you?
I believe in some science, but I don't believe in science driven by anti-religious beliefs.
That imo, is not a bad thing, since I also believe in honesty, and truth.

What is truth?
I believe it exists, but it is not easy to find, due to the fact that men tries to hide it.
If it were as clear as a bowl of soup, none of us would need to debate the topic.

You know soup when you see it, don't you? Me too.
Do you know the truth, when you see it? Yes? Me too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #580

Post by SailingCyclops »

theStudent wrote:Do you know the truth, when you see it? Yes? Me too.
NO! I know truth when I see empirical EVIDENCE supporting it.

Religion flies you into buildings, Science flies you to the moon.
If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities -- Voltaire
Bless us and save us, said Mrs. O'Davis

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