A Deluge of Evidence for the Flood?

[LittlePig]

And I can't think of any reason you would make the comment you made if you weren't suggesting that the find favored your view of a worldwide flood.

Umm, because simply it's a better explanation? And the fact that it's more consistent with the Flood Model doesn't hurt either.

Except, of course, it isn't consistent with a 'Flood Model', since it isn't mixed in with any animals that we know are modern.

Before the rabbits multiply beyond control, I'll just leave my proposal as a rapid burial. Nothing more than that. For this thread, it can just be a giant mud slide.

Since it's still spring time, let's let the rabbits multiply.

Questions for Debate:

1) Does a Global Flood Model provide the best explanation for our current fossil record, geologic formations, and biodiversity?

2) What real science is used in Global Flood Models?

3) What predictions does a Global Flood Model make?

4) Have Global Flood Models ever been subjected to a formal peer review process?

[otseng]

Moving on to fossils.

Let's first start with how fossils form. The most common way is rapid burial.

In order for an organism to be fossilized, the remains normally need to be covered by sediment as soon as possible. However there are exceptions to this, such as if an organism becomes frozen, desiccated, or comes to rest in an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

The next step is mineralization. The most common way for this is through minerals carried by water.

Permineralization occurs after burial, as the empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater and the minerals precipitate from the groundwater, thus occupying the empty spaces.

The sequence of rapid burial and water saturation conforms to the FM. How does SG explain rapid burial and water saturation?

[Goat]

Moving on to fossils.

Let's first start with how fossils form. The most common way is rapid burial.

In order for an organism to be fossilized, the remains normally need to be covered by sediment as soon as possible. However there are exceptions to this, such as if an organism becomes frozen, desiccated, or comes to rest in an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

The next step is mineralization. The most common way for this is through minerals carried by water.

Permineralization occurs after burial, as the empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater and the minerals precipitate from the groundwater, thus occupying the empty spaces.

The sequence of rapid burial and water saturation conforms to the FM. How does SG explain rapid burial and water saturation?

Local conditions, such as being underwater.. or mudslids.

How about those burials in fossils we see that do not involve water. How are those consistant with the FM? Not all rapid burial is caused by involvement with water.

How are those fossils consistant with the FM. Please prove you claim.

[otseng]

Local conditions, such as being underwater.. or mudslids.

Remember, fossilization requires both burial and water. So, are you saying that SG says fossils are formed by underwater mudslids?

How about those burials in fossils we see that do not involve water. How are those consistant with the FM? Not all rapid burial is caused by involvement with water.

Yes, there are other methods. Which one are you referring to?

[Goat]

Local conditions, such as being underwater.. or mudslids.

Remember, fossilization requires both burial and water. So, are you saying that SG says fossils are formed by underwater mudslids?

How about those burials in fossils we see that do not involve water. How are those consistant with the FM? Not all rapid burial is caused by involvement with water.

Yes, there are other methods. Which one are you referring to?

Yes, it needs water over time.. yet many fossils are not because the conditions are beause of water. Being buried in ash of a volcano, or in a sandstorm, or in a landslide does not require that the animal was killed because of water conditions. It isn't a flood that is required, but rapid burial... and a long period of time to replace the body with minerals.

A number of fossils were created in sandstone, in desert conditions. The existence of fossils in sandstone falsifies the FM for your claim. This is particularly true when you have desert sandstone that is older and is beneath layers of fossils that are laid down in shallow seas, such as in the grand canyon.

[otseng]

Yes, it needs water over time.. yet many fossils are not because the conditions are beause of water. Being buried in ash of a volcano, or in a sandstorm, or in a landslide does not require that the animal was killed because of water conditions. It isn't a flood that is required, but rapid burial... and a long period of time to replace the body with minerals.

In terms of being buried by ash, or a sandstorm, or a landslide, that might account for rapid burial. But, that does not account for mineralization. Again, two processes needs to happen, rapid burial and mineralization.

Furthur, a buried organism will decompose/rot. So, mineralization will need to occur relatively quickly after burial.

A number of fossils were created in sandstone, in desert conditions. The existence of fossils in sandstone falsifies the FM for your claim.

Marine fossils are also found in sandstone. So, how can marine life exist in deserts?

[Scotracer]

Yes, it needs water over time.. yet many fossils are not because the conditions are beause of water. Being buried in ash of a volcano, or in a sandstorm, or in a landslide does not require that the animal was killed because of water conditions. It isn't a flood that is required, but rapid burial... and a long period of time to replace the body with minerals.

In terms of being buried by ash, or a sandstorm, or a landslide, that might account for rapid burial. But, that does not account for mineralization. Again, two processes needs to happen, rapid burial and mineralization.

Furthur, a buried organism will decompose/rot. So, mineralization will need to occur relatively quickly after burial.

A number of fossils were created in sandstone, in desert conditions. The existence of fossils in sandstone falsifies the FM for your claim.

Marine fossils are also found in sandstone. So, how can marine life exist in deserts?

Of course, sandstone can form due to rivers and seas...

[Goat]

Yes, it needs water over time.. yet many fossils are not because the conditions are beause of water. Being buried in ash of a volcano, or in a sandstorm, or in a landslide does not require that the animal was killed because of water conditions. It isn't a flood that is required, but rapid burial... and a long period of time to replace the body with minerals.

In terms of being buried by ash, or a sandstorm, or a landslide, that might account for rapid burial. But, that does not account for mineralization. Again, two processes needs to happen, rapid burial and mineralization.

Furthur, a buried organism will decompose/rot. So, mineralization will need to occur relatively quickly after burial.

A number of fossils were created in sandstone, in desert conditions. The existence of fossils in sandstone falsifies the FM for your claim.

Marine fossils are also found in sandstone. So, how can marine life exist in deserts?

Does mineralization happen rapidly? Please provide the evidence that mineralizatin can happen 'rapidly'. Define 'Rapidly'.

Show the experimental evidence that under normal conditions that would happen, minerization can happen 'rapidly'.

[Grumpy]

otseng

The sequence of rapid burial and water saturation conforms to the FM. How does SG explain rapid burial and water saturation?

Just how...er...simple is your concept of time on Earth? How many floods were there, one for every different animal that was fossilized throughout time? How does the FM deal with the perfect sorting of fossils by time? The fact that where dinosaurs are found, man is not and vice versa? Not to mention the other 800,000,000 years since the Cambrian began?

Rapid burial and water saturation is but one of the mechanisms of fossilization, one easily explained by local flooding. This also explains the sorting of fossils by time, something the FM cannot do.

Grumpy

[otseng]

Does mineralization happen rapidly? Please provide the evidence that mineralization can happen 'rapidly'. Define 'Rapidly'.

Show the experimental evidence that under normal conditions that would happen, mineralization can happen 'rapidly'.

Fossilization requires mineralization to occur before decomposition. And the more intact the specimen (less decomposition), it means mineralization occurred quickly.

The excellent preservation of the newfound Psittacosaurus may have been a consequence of rapid burial and speedy mineralization of the soft tissue before it began to decompose,

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... kin_2.html

As for the timeframe for mineralization, eggs have been mineralized on the order of weeks:

Here we show that rapid mineralization of invertebrate eggs is possible under laboratory conditions. Under anaerobic conditions, eggs become coated in mainly calcium carbonate within three weeks.

http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/ ... ct/31/1/39

Bones mineralized on the order of years:

A bone can be completely remineralized within 5-10 years.

http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/fossil/fossil.htm

Another paper on rapid mineralization: Chemistry, Mineralogy, and Evidence for Rapid Initial Mineralization

Certainly anything past decades is not required, or even plausible considering organic decomposition, for mineralization. If a long time is required for mineralization, you'll then need to explain how all those specimens avoided decomposition during that time.

[otseng]

How many floods were there, one for every different animal that was fossilized throughout time?

The FM proposes one flood. How many local floods does the SG propose?

How does the FM deal with the perfect sorting of fossils by time?

This has been repeatedly claimed. Please provide evidence to back this claim.

The fact that where dinosaurs are found, man is not and vice versa?

Let me ask this, if a human bone and a dinosaur bone is found together, would it falsify SG?

Not to mention the other 800,000,000 years since the Cambrian began?

Wikipedia puts the Cambrian at 542 - 488 MYA. But let's put the Cambrian on hold for now until we finish discussing how fossils form.

Rapid burial and water saturation is but one of the mechanisms of fossilization, one easily explained by local flooding.

Flooding is certainly the best explanation for fossilization. Now the question is from a whole bunch of them or one global one?