Aliens

[scorpia]

Maybe time with a trekkie I know is getting to me..... but lately I feel the need to ask; people here only believe things on scientific basis. Well then what of the existance of aliens? There seems to be more than enough proof that life existing on a planet other than Earth is possible. There are plenty of planets in other solar sytems discovered already. And if life could happen here on Earth, it can happen again. So would there be by now sufficient proof for the existance of aliens? Are they really that supernatural?

[bernee51]

Maybe time with a trekkie I know is getting to me..... but lately I feel the need to ask; people here only believe things on scientific basis. Well then what of the existance of aliens? There seems to be more than enough proof that life existing on a planet other than Earth is possible. There are plenty of planets in other solar sytems discovered already. And if life could happen here on Earth, it can happen again. So would there be by now sufficient proof for the existance of aliens?

Depends on how you define 'life'. Do you mean 'biological and sentient' or just 'biological'.

As you suggest, the existence of so many billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars some of which have been shown to have planetary systems would lead towards a conclusion that some form of 'life' outside of our own planet is a possibility.

That said, I do not believe there is enough data available as yet to be considered 'proof'.

My personal position is that I do not believe or not believe...I merely do not know.

Are they really that supernatural?

If the exist in the natural universe thay are not supernatural

[ST88]

if life could happen here on Earth, it can happen again. So would there be by now sufficient proof for the existance of aliens?

Not necessarily. Assuming aliens exist -- for the moment -- and that they have already visited our planet, it would be logical to assume that their grasp of space travel indicates their highly advanced technical knowledge. If so, one could imagine all sorts of technical reasons why their presence has not been detected.

Assuming sentient life on another planet would also mean assuming it on a number of other planets, and it would be highly arrogant to assume that we -- Earth -- would be their first foray to a life-sustaining world. As such, it is possible to assume that they have experience dealing with worlds like ours and presumably know what to do in order to accomplish their goals, whatever they may be. One of these techniques would be knowing how to remain undetected. Highly speculative, I know. But a civilization as advanced as one that had mastered space and space travel enough to recognize that Earth is able to sustain life, and can actually get here, would have a number of other technical achievements and advantages that we would know nothing about.

It's also possible that we've never been visited and never will be.

[scorpia]

Depends on how you define 'life'. Do you mean 'biological and sentient' or just 'biological'.

Either one. and not necessarily UFO's which would fly over and probe humans. Like ST88 said;

Assuming sentient life on another planet would also mean assuming it on a number of other planets, and it would be highly arrogant to assume that we -- Earth -- would be their first foray to a life-sustaining world

Which is pretty much right. I'm thinking more along the lines of a planet which could have life that humans may detect first.

If the exist in the natural universe thay are not supernatural

Point taken...............

[otseng]

There seems to be more than enough proof that life existing on a planet other than Earth is possible.

Could you go more into this? What proofs are you referring to?

[nikolayevich]

From what I've seen of "proof"... it generally amounts to something which is based on an evolutionary model.... "we believe that for life to arise, there needs to be adequate water, etc... something we feel we'll find on Europa... If we do, it will be good 'evidence' for life having arisen there at one point"...

The obvious problem is that it's based on too many assumptions. They've just landed on Titan, and it's very exciting (I myself am intreagued) but the primary excitement is based on the probability of water... again, it's based on the conception that partial environmental necessities for life = probable former life. The logic is flawed...

"Because life exists near water -> finding water is connected to life"

Half a billion dollars on hope for ancient streams... or... feeding over a million children for one year? Aw shucks, let's go to Titan. It's our boyhood dream!

I digress. You're asking about Aliens and I've been observing this Titan event, the Tsunami...

[scorpia]

Could you go more into this? What proofs are you referring to?

As so far, planets outside this solar system have been found, eg mentioned here. and here. More 'Earth like' planets, rocky ones seem to be detected. Although it none of them would seem to support life. For life to turn up, you need the conditions that primitive Earth would have had, like nikolayevich said;

From what I've seen of "proof"... it generally amounts to something which is based on an evolutionary model.... "we believe that for life to arise, there needs to be adequate water, etc... something we feel we'll find on Europa... If we do, it will be good 'evidence' for life having arisen there at one point"...
The obvious problem is that it's based on too many assumptions. They've just landed on Titan, and it's very exciting (I myself am intreagued) but the primary excitement is based on the probability of water... again, it's based on the conception that partial environmental necessities for life = probable former life. The logic is flawed...

That is a point though. Water does not mean life had or ever would exist. Not only that, but Titan would be too cold. Still, as I am hearing this on the news as I type, it seems Titan may have all the basic ingredients that primitive Earth had to make life.

Though there is no definite proof that extra-terrestrial life exists, planets are being found which are more 'terrestrial', other spacial bodies are being noticed with a primitive Earth like atmosphere. The next step may be finding a planet fufilling both requirements. Again, this may not necessarily mean life would turn up, but it would be probable. But then how probable would it be for such a planet it to turn up?

I have a pack of cards, and I see an ace of hearts (Titan), I also see a lot of spades (other planets), is it illogical for me to assume that there is an ace of spades somewhere in the pack? Or maybe I'm just not 'playing with a full deck of cards' :p, after all, in this pack, you don't know if there's going to be anymore spades or aces from the ones you've observed.

Half a billion dollars on hope for ancient streams... or... feeding over a million children for one year? Aw shucks, let's go to Titan. It's our boyhood dream!
I digress. You're asking about Aliens and I've been observing this Titan event, the Tsunami...

Well, yes, the Tsunami is more important. And a lot of money was spent on this exploration when it could have been spent on say helping another country. Maybe the satellite shouldn't have been sent then....

[keltzkroz]

If I may suggest a good book to read on this kind of topic, try 'Rare Earth' by Peter Ward (a professor of Geological Sciences) and Donald Brownlee (a professor of Astronomy). The hypothesis: while 'primitive' life (such as microbes) might be abundant in the universe, 'advanced' life is a different story.

[Zarathustra]

I believe that it's pretty arrogant to think that the only way life can exist is through the exact conditions that could be found on primitive earth. The scope of the Universe is well beyond human comprehension; one must also assume that we can also not comprehend the vast diversity in the Universe. Isn't it possible that, somewhere out there, there was/is a combiniation of elements (perhaps the existence of which we do not yet know) that was also perfect for the creation of life.

Keep in mind, my knowledge of Biology is pretty much limited to a highschool course, so I could very well be way off base here.

[YEC]

Maybe time with a trekkie I know is getting to me..... but lately I feel the need to ask; people here only believe things on scientific basis. Well then what of the existance of aliens? There seems to be more than enough proof that life existing on a planet other than Earth is possible. There are plenty of planets in other solar sytems discovered already. And if life could happen here on Earth, it can happen again. So would there be by now sufficient proof for the existance of aliens? Are they really that supernatural?

Your first mistake is making the assumption that life arose here on earth in the first place (abiogenesis) then evolved. Your second problem is trying to make a direct correlation to other planets out there assuming they are just like early earth...was supposed to be like.

Read your bible...it says we were created.

Then again it doesn't say that God didn't create life on other planets.