What if Genesis were reconstructed?

[harvey1]

There are biblical translations where the translators update the Hebrew and Greek concepts to modernize them with current use of popular language. I was wondering, if a translation were to pop up that was consistent with this type of liberty, but made Genesis compatible with evolution, would this be acceptable or do you think it would be counter-productive? If you think it would be counter-productive, then in what way?

[CJK]

If you think it would be counter-productive, then in what way?

It would be counterproductive, in that all further pusuit of knowledge would be lost, making it impossible to 'expand one's horizons'.

[harvey1]

It would be counterproductive, in that all further pusuit of knowledge would be lost, making it impossible to 'expand one's horizons'.

Well, now that you said that, let me make the pursuit of knowledge impossible. I feel like the guy who opened up Pandora's box. Here it goes...:

Part One: The General Evolutionay Account

In the beginning of God`s preparing the earth and its atmosphere, the earth was unformed and without shape: darkness inside the nebula cloud covered the depth of space, and God's Spirit fluttered within the nebula cloud. And God said, Let there be light by fusion of the developing proto-sun: and there was light. And God, looking on the light, saw that it was good: and God made a division between the light and the dark by forming the proto-earth and giving it a rotation. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night: and the evening and the morning were the first day of God's creative act. A few million years later, God said, Let there be an atmosphere, and let the atmosphere separate the airborne moisture from the water on the ground. And God made the atmosphere, and divided the moisture in the air from the moisture on the ground, and it was so. And God called the atmosphere the Sky. And there was evening, and there was morning -- a second day God had worked. A few more million years had passed, and God said, Let the waters on the ground move into a large Pacific basin, and let a supercontinent appear. And it was so. A Mars-sized object hit the earth, and the Pacific basin formed. Water rushed into the basin and a supercontinent appeared. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters he called the Ocean: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth cause basic life to spring up which will eventually yield herb producing seed, fruit-trees yielding fruit after their kind, the seed of which is in them, on the earth. And it was so. And the earth brought forth life, just as God had commanded, and eventually it brought forth seeds according to its species, and the tree that bears fruit having seed each one according to its species. And God saw that natural evolution was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day of God's work over these vast time periods had been completed. Millions of more years passed. And after this time, God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the clearing atmosphere, to divide between the day and the night for the emerging life; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years as life evolves on this young planet; and let them be for lights in the atmosphere, to give light on the earth. And it was so. The nebula that had blocked the light was cleared by the solar wind, the thick methane clouds that had prevented light had finally cleared, and for the first time the earth saw the proto-sun. And God completed the creation of two great lights, the great light, the Sun, to rule the day, and the small light, the Moon, to rule the night and lessor light from the stars. And God gave them to be in the expanse of the atmosphere to give light upon the earth. The sun had finally come to its full brightness such that it was now the Sun, and the Moon (after being formed from the collision with the Mars-sized object) had settled into its orbit so that it was now the Moon. And it was so. The Sun ruled the light of day, the Moon ruled the light of night, and they divided the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning to that day, the fourth day of God's creative act which was now 1 billion years later from the day God first spoke. Then God also said: Let the oceans bring sea creatures and the first airborne creatures. The airborne creatures will eventually fly over the earth within earth's atmosphere. This eventually led to the first carnivores within the oceans including every living creature that moves in the waters according to their species, and every winged flying thing after its species: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and Evolve, and fill the waters of the ocean: and let the flying things evolve upon earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day of God's spoken word and commandment to the earth. And in the Devonian period, God said, Let the earth bring forth land creatures after their own species, animals and creeping things, and all the beast of the earth, after their species. And it was so. The earth evolved amphibians and later all varieties of beasts and arthropods. And God made the beast of the earth after its species, and the animal after their species, and every creeping thing of the ground after its species. God saw that it was good. And near the latest period of earth's evolutionary past, God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the animals, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and evolve, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb producing seed that is on the whole earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree producing seed: it shall be food for you; and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning -- the sixth day of six actual days since the creation when God spoke. And the earth and its atmosophere and all things in them were complete. Millions of years later, God finished the creation work on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Creation was completely finished on this day. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it. This is then the evolution of earth and its atmosphere when they were created, in the day that God made earth.

Part Two: The Detailed Account of Evolution

Here is the detailed account of the evolution of earth when they were created, in the day that Lord God made earth: No plant had yet sprung up on earth, and no sign of life of the field had yet sprung up; for Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth. This is when earth was just being formed and the temperature on earth was too hot for rain. There was also no man around to garden or anything like that. But there was steam from the earth, and this steam watered the whole face of the ground. At that time, the Lord God formed adamah. Adamah stuff was red clay that contains the life that we originated from. This adamah stuff was taken from the slime of the earth: and God breathed into the cross section of it the breath of life, and the adamah stuff became a living thing. And the Lord God had planted an [underwater] garden of delight in the early beginning: wherein he placed the basic life, adamah stuff, whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth out of the ground all manner of stromatolites, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the "tree of life" also in the midst of paradise: and the "tree of cognition of deciding for oneself on what is good and evil."

An [underwater] current went out this delightful place to nourish the paradise, which from there it divided into four different currents that spread this life to the whole earth. The name of the first current was called "Increase," it is that which is surrounding the whole land of the western lands where gold is. And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and the onyx stone are there. And the name of the second current is "Bringing Forth": this current goes round all the land of the most southern people. And the name of the third current is "Rapid": that is it which flows forward toward the most northern people. And the fourth current is "Fruitfulness" [this current goes round all the land of the most Eastern people]. And the Lord God took the adamah stuff, and caused it to rest in the garden of paradise, to perform its functions, and to beautify it. And the Lord God commanded the adamah stuff, saying: Of every stromatolite in this paradise you can eat: but the "tree" that brings cognition of deciding for yourself what is good and evil, you shall not "eat" of that tree; for in the day that you eat of it you will bring an end to adamah stuff on earth.

And the Lord God said: It is not good for the adamah stuff to be without division: I will make it have a similar copy unto itself to assist its evolutionary development. And out of the same material that the Adamah had evolved from, the Lord God formed every microbe of earth and every airborne microbe creature, and brought them to the new species of Adamah, to see what new functions this would bring forth for Adamah; and whatever symbiotic function the Adamah could make use of, that became part of its symbiosis function. And Adamah gradually had functions for all the creatures that interacted heavily with Adamah, including the airborne microbes, and all the creatures living at that time: but for Adamah there was not found a copy like itself.

Then the Lord God cast a deep freeze upon Adamah: and when it was in a dorment stage of its evolutionary development, God took one of its key cellular structures, and changed its structure. And the Lord God built the cellular structure which he took from the Adamah into a female creature: and the female creature interacted with the male Adamah. And the male Adamah by its behavior one could tell that it was in effect saying, "this time it is the same structure as my structure, and same body of my body: this is a fe-male because our relationship is based on the same original genetic material and not one that is formed by a symbiotic relationship." (For this evolutionary cause of sex will a man go away from his father and his mother and be joined to his wife; and they will be one flesh.) At this evolutionary juncture, the male-female Adamah were without cognition, and were not able to have feelings.

(Hundreds of millions of years pass and the Adamah is now dwelling on land and they live in a garden of paradise on dry land. The line of Adam has now acquired cognition abilities.) Now the evolutionary ancestor to the serpent was more intelligent than any animal that the line of Adam was interacting with (which the LORD God had made). The serpent's behavior communicated to the female, "Yes, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (The longterm evolutionary behavior as a threat to Adam was directly responsible to bring added cognition to the female's mind.) And the female's behavior expressed in terms of generations said unto the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: but of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God has said, you shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest your lineage die." (That is to say, the female expressed an awareness of her cognitive thoughts about there being moral behavior.) And the serpent's behavioral reaction (over generations upon generations) said to the woman, "You will not certainly die; for God knows that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (The serpent's evolutionary behavior was reacting to the increasing cognition by changing its behavior accordingly. This more sophisticated behavior caused the female of the species to become even more cognizant--in a primitive fashion--about their growing cognition.) And the female saw that the "tree" was good to "eat," and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the "fruit" thereof, and did "eat," and gave to her husband who did "eat." And the "eyes" of them both were "opened:" and when they realized they had emotional feelings of shame, they began using primitive tools. (The female species took a major evolutionary step forward by becoming cognizant of their emotions, and this brought on all types of evolutionary responses within their primitive brain.)

[juliod]

The problem you face with this sort of thing is a violation of the Occam's Razor requirement. People talk alot about Occam's Razor, but usually wrongly. This is a specific example where it is correct to apply. In you little story, very nicely done, BTW, you've introduced god doing actions that would have happened anyway, according to the naturalist understanding.

For example you have god saying "let there be light by fusion". Well, science says that fusion would start by itself, when the density of the nebula reaches a sufficient magnitude. It can be demonstrated in the laboratory. God, then, is an unnecessary addition to the system or process. There is no need for his will to start the fusion.

Occam's Razor says to cut out the unnecessary complications in the story. Once you do that you are only left with the ordinary scientific explanation. So, in the end, it is not helpful.

DanZ

[harvey1]

For example you have god saying "let there be light by fusion". Well, science says that fusion would start by itself, when the density of the nebula reaches a sufficient magnitude. It can be demonstrated in the laboratory. God, then, is an unnecessary addition to the system or process. There is no need for his will to start the fusion. Occam's Razor says to cut out the unnecessary complications in the story. Once you do that you are only left with the ordinary scientific explanation. So, in the end, it is not helpful.

Thanks.

Well, there's one main reason why Occam's razor would have no effect to this being an outcome of natural processes. The laws of nature would need to explain why things happen from one moment to the next, and a theist (such as myself) replies that those natural laws are God's word, and as God's word they are an approximation to what God wills for the world. So, if it is God's will that there be some kind of destination for the world (the "7th day"), then God's word will be such that this will happen, and therefore the laws of nature will approximate that in the most mimimum way possible. So, nature always moves minimally (or naturally), and that is always as an approximation to what God wills. Since it is an approximation and is minimally performed, it looks haphazard and puzzlingly random but with the oddity of doing some fantastic things (e.g., solar wind blowing the dust out of the solar system otherwise life wouldn't be possible, etc.). It happens because it must happen, and the way it happens is minimally (i.e., according to natural law).

[juliod]

So, if it is God's will that there be some kind of destination for the world (the "7th day"), then God's word will be such that this will happen, and therefore the laws of nature will approximate that in the most mimimum way possible.

But Occam's Razor tells us that it is god that needs to be removed from this theory. He's the "extra" that isn't needed and isn't indicated by any observations.

For example, in your story you've had god saying "let there be fusion". Yet we can create fusion at will and without invoking god to make it happen. God is unnecessary for nuclear physics, so we cut him out. You are free, as a theist, to assign "credit" for all this to god, but there is no reason to do so.

What you need to find is something, anything, that cannot happen without god, and happens in such a way that we can objectively see god's action.

DanZ

[harvey1]

But Occam's Razor tells us that it is god that needs to be removed from this theory. He's the "extra" that isn't needed and isn't indicated by any observations. For example, in your story you've had god saying "let there be fusion". Yet we can create fusion at will and without invoking god to make it happen. God is unnecessary for nuclear physics, so we cut him out. You are free, as a theist, to assign "credit" for all this to god, but there is no reason to do so. What you need to find is something, anything, that cannot happen without god, and happens in such a way that we can objectively see god's action.

No, this is not correct. When we look at the laws of physics we have two choices. Those laws are just regularities, if that's true, that has a whole slew of problems with which I think cannot be true. The other choice is that the laws of physics are based on something non-physical. The problem with the latter is that you must have a way to ascertain when a criteria in the non-physical formula has been satisfied by the physical conditions. This satisfaction relation, I think undoubtedly, requires a mind inherent in the universe. This would be true for any physical event that occurs in the world, even typing this post, or scientists generating nuclear fusion in a lab.

In other words, the laws would be statements that are either valid or not for a physical system. In order for the statements to be true, the meaning of the statements would need to be satisfied, and as you might agree, any proposition needs to be interpreted by a mind in order for the proposition to be either true or false, effective or ineffective. Since it can be shown that the laws are probably propositions, it is probable that an omniscient interpreter exists that makes the laws true and such things as fusion possible.

[ST88]

There are biblical translations where the translators update the Hebrew and Greek concepts to modernize them with current use of popular language. I was wondering, if a translation were to pop up that was consistent with this type of liberty, but made Genesis compatible with evolution, would this be acceptable or do you think it would be counter-productive? If you think it would be counter-productive, then in what way?

It depends what you mean by "counter-productive". If you mean that it would be laughed off as an attempt by the liberal wing of Christianity to reconcile itself with current scientific understanding, then, sure, it would be counter-productive, because it would tend to force people into fundamentalism via shame and humiliation, much as is happening now.

The biggest problem that I can see is that science does not deal with dogmas. So evolution, despite having massive amounts of evidence behind it, may not be the entire story. If alien robots from Tralfamadore were discovered to have created the human race for eventual slave labor, then the Bible would yet again have to be re-interpreted.

[QED]

I think Juliod was right to take Occams Razor to your story in the way he did. According to your defence your true recourse should be to re-write the story from t=0 where you might be inclined to talk about god breaking the various symmetries in particular ways as the primordial radiation cooled. The physics from this point on is well documented and as was pointed out, all the rest follows quite naturally.

As far as I know this picture is reasonably consistent with what is known to science and raises an interesting question for theism -- what has god been doing these last 13.7 Billion years? This might well be seen as counterproductive.

[harvey1]

I think Juliod was right to take Occams Razor to your story in the way he did. According to your defence your true recourse should be to re-write the story from t=0 where you might be inclined to talk about god breaking the various symmetries in particular ways as the primordial radiation cooled. The physics from this point on is well documented and as was pointed out, all the rest follows quite naturally. As far as I know this picture is reasonably consistent with what is known to science and raises an interesting question for theism -- what has god been doing these last 13.7 Billion years? This might well be seen as counterproductive.

Again, you have to face the consequences of the wrecking ball that I mentioned to materialism. Once you do, the question moves from how can cause happen in a pure materialist setting to how can the universe stay in existence in a pure logical setting. In a pure logical setting, the universe stays in existence because every event is causally tied to the role of the omniscient interpreter. The OI acts as a sustainer to the world. Hence, when the spoken word of the OI says that something is "true," that means its existence will continue on according to the laws. Therefore, it's true that the words which decided nuclear fusion were "declared" at the beginning of time, but it is also true that each and every instance those words are "re-declared" by the OI each and every time the physical situation satisfies those laws. Since those laws are partially based on God's will for the whole universe, every event is approximating God's ultimate will in the world.