Two Killers of Evolution - Result or Cause?

[SelectThis!]

I noticed that my first thread was moved to Random Rambling. As you view my challenge for debate below, realize that this is a topic from a larger platform of ideas. Consult the previous thread for more reasons for my foundation.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22688

Here is my topic for debate: It seems to me that Collapsing Wave Function and Entropy in Information deny Evolution as a cause for life. Instead, it is better stated to be an intended result of Creation. Less a result of natural selection, it seems that evolution should be more accurately seen as alteration to programming. Here is my reasoning:

Collapsing Wave Function

Any evolutionist, when pressed against the wall, will say that the theory does not suggest that evolution is the cause of life. If we consider the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, it is clear that collapsing wave function entirely denies the separation of matter from consciousness. For an indeterminate states of matter (High order and low entropy) to be changed toward purpose, there must be a consciousness collapsing the wave function to determine the new state. Mathematically, it could never be any other way. A quick examination of our current understanding of quantum mechanics denies the possibility that evolution could ever engage consciousness in life from Hydrogen and Helium in a state of high order. Evolution is the mechanism of change, but consciousness is the engine that governs the mechanics. Again, mathematics demonstrates this to be true. Water and light are the first matrix of life as you will come to see.

Entropy in Information

Getting over the first hurdle of collapsing wave function presupposes the next characteristic of our universe. Information degrades over time. To deny entropy toward a living consciousness is impossible apart from an original consciousness collapsing wave function. Many of you will hit reply at this point to say that entropy can be overcome in nature in some cases. You are likely referring to entropy in energy. Entropy in information is fundamentally different. When we examine DNA as a digital platform for rendering elements into conscious life, the notion of this information assembling itself is entirely denied. Entropy in information would kill any possibility in a harsh environment of hydrogen and helium. Again, the mathematics of entropy in information theory denies the possibility.

Are these two theories the end of the debate for evolution as a cause for life and consciousness?

[100%atheist]

FIRST AND FOREMOST:
I am not conviced that the OP (and the previous random rambling posts) are not creations of a random text generator.

Here is my topic for debate: It seems to me that Collapsing Wave Function and Entropy in Information deny Evolution as a cause for life.

Please tell me first where did you get that evolution is 'a cause for life'? I never saw anyone would even suggest it.

Instead, it is better stated to be an intended result of Creation.

Instead, it is better stated that 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

Less a result of natural selection, it seems that evolution should be more accurately seen as alteration to programming.

Alteration to programming??? This makes me to ask you an obvious question: what is the god that you believe in? It can't be the Abrahamic religion god, who supposedly is the never-changing god.

Collapsing Wave Function

What is the meaning of a wave function?

Also, please define the wave function.

Any evolutionist, when pressed against the wall, will say that the theory does not suggest that evolution is the cause of life.

Please bring in a citation suggesting that any evolution scientist says otherwise when not tortured.

***** ...random pseudo-scientific rambling.... *****

Evolution is the mechanism of change, but consciousness is the engine that governs the mechanics. Again, mathematics demonstrates this to be true. Water and light are the first matrix of life as you will come to see.

Good, please bring in your mathematical demonstration that 'Water and light are the first matrix of life'. A reference to a peer-reviewed scientific journal is required given how huge the claim is.

Entropy in Information

... Information degrades over time.

Define 'information'.

To deny entropy toward a living consciousness is impossible apart from an original consciousness collapsing wave function.

Please, define 'entropy'.

Many of you will hit reply at this point to say that entropy can be overcome in nature in some cases. You are likely referring to entropy in energy. Entropy in information is fundamentally different.

Please, define 'entropy in information'. Also, enlighten us how it is different from the only definition of entropy (that is k*lnZ) that I know.

When we examine DNA as a digital platform for rendering elements into conscious life, the notion of this information assembling itself is entirely denied. Entropy in information would kill any possibility in a harsh environment of hydrogen and helium. Again, the mathematics of entropy in information theory denies the possibility.

Are these two theories the end of the debate for evolution as a cause for life and consciousness?

If this text is created by a random text generator (maybe with some help of a human), it is not too bad.

What do you think, guys and girls?

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 2 by 100%atheist]

FIRST AND FOREMOST:
I am not conviced that the OP (and the previous random rambling posts) are not creations of a random text generator.

Likely because you cannot understand what I said.

Please tell me first where did you get that evolution is 'a cause for life'? I never saw anyone would even suggest it.

If we are to believe that we exist, there must be a cause. Science would have us believe that simple cells were engaged somehow to derive energy from chemiosmosis. Okay, maybe that is your only mystery to solve. From this, science hangs its hat on those cells moving to human consciousness over time through natural selection. If you have the slightest understanding of what collapsing wave function suggests, you'll need to demonstrate a process moving simple cells toward the ability to choose. Our current understanding of collapsing wave function would entirely deny the possibility.

Instead, it is better stated that 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

No value to the subject here. 153 is closer to this truth. John 21 shows us the 17th triangular number as the difference between unity and multiplicity. Pythagoras called this the "Measure of the Fish." It represents the square root of 2, or a ratio of 1:1.415. The Vesica Pisces is made from this ratio and is the true answer to the riddle of life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandorla#Mandorla What is the acorn? Is it the tree? No, the seed and the tree are the information that render form. Energy is information and geometry is governed. No way around it.

Alteration to programming??? This makes me to ask you an obvious question: what is the god that you believe in? It can't be the Abrahamic religion god, who supposedly is the never-changing god.

Nothing in the universe has ever been in the same place or the same state twice. The Earth has never been in the same place in space twice. Nothing science has ever observed has be in a repeated state. Eternal things do not change. Immortal things change, yet never die. Mortal man changes and dies. You must be born again. It's a cycle of the Eternal unchanging soul. This is called involution and evolution. Consult my original thread. Again, possibly you do not understand that there cannot be an infinite amount of finite things, nor can there be a finite amount of infinite things. Mathematics shows relationship between unity and multiplicity. There is no paradox. Consult Prognathous on the 'measure of the fish' and you will be able to see this clearly.

What is the meaning of a wave function?

Also, please define the wave function.

There are plenty of good videos out there. I would suggest the same video I linked to in the longer version of this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DIl3Hfh9tY Leonard Susskind is saying the very same thing I am saying, only you need a bit more time to hear it.

Please bring in a citation suggesting that any evolution scientist says otherwise when not tortured.

I am not saying that evolution is a cause. Science tries to convince us of this, then turns around and says, "No one says it's a cause of life." I am merely noting the double standard. You are making the claim that what I say is confirmed. It is not a cause. It's a result of intended programming. DNA is digital.

Good, please bring in your mathematical demonstration that 'Water and light are the first matrix of life'. A reference to a peer-reviewed scientific journal is required given how huge the claim is.

I have no need to describe what has already been described. Wikipedia has all of it there in the WIKI on collapsing wave function and entropy in information theory.

Define 'information'.

Energy. Note the Susskind video above.

Please, define 'entropy in information'. Also, enlighten us how it is different from the only definition of entropy (that is k*lnZ) that I know.

Perhaps you need to read the two theories. One concerns energy, which IS information (See the video) and the other concerns the relative theory of information. Bits of information degrade over time, just as energy gives off heat as information is exchanged. Again, Susskind does a great job showing the relationship. He also shows why this is the defining moment for science in our century. Again, this is the difference between multiplicity and unity. Jesus stated this for us in John 21 and locked the greatest secret to reality there for us in parable. There is a reason the interlocking circles are part of tradition for every nation in the world, both past and present. It's a universal law and the reason we notice evolution in matter, but not spirit. How does one produce more than one with autonomy and eternal difference? All snowflakes are unique, yet come from the same ocean.

If this text is created by a random text generator (maybe with some help of a human), it is not too bad.

Have you ever read Einstein's work. You might get the same feeling. Lower axioms cause paradox and contradiction. Rise to a higher degree of thinking and the world opens as a flower. Again, 153 is the reason for that flower. Do you know anything of fractal geometry?




[/quote]

[Goat]

[Replying to post 2 by 100%atheist]

FIRST AND FOREMOST:
I am not conviced that the OP (and the previous random rambling posts) are not creations of a random text generator.

Likely because you cannot understand what I said.

Please tell me first where did you get that evolution is 'a cause for life'? I never saw anyone would even suggest it.

If we are to believe that we exist, there must be a cause. Science would have us believe that simple cells were engaged somehow to derive energy from chemiosmosis. Okay, maybe that is your only mystery to solve. From this, science hangs its hat on those cells moving to human consciousness over time through natural selection. If you have the slightest understanding of what collapsing wave function suggests, you'll need to demonstrate a process moving simple cells toward the ability to choose. Our current understanding of collapsing wave function would entirely deny the possibility.

Instead, it is better stated that 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

No value to the subject here. 153 is closer to this truth. John 21 shows us the 17th triangular number as the difference between unity and multiplicity. Pythagoras called this the "Measure of the Fish." It represents the square root of 2, or a ratio of 1:1.415. The Vesica Pisces is made from this ratio and is the true answer to the riddle of life.

I do not believe you are finding anything of value, but are just pulling numbers out, and randomly giving meaning there where there is none.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 4 by Goat]

I do not believe you are finding anything of value, but are just pulling numbers out, and randomly giving meaning there where there is none.

That is, until you do a slight bit of research.

http://www.greatdreams.com/153.htm

Nothing in the Bible is random. All of it outlines HydroGenesis.

[Bust Nak]

If we are to believe that we exist, there must be a cause. Science would have us believe that simple cells were engaged somehow to derive energy from chemiosmosis. Okay, maybe that is your only mystery to solve. From this, science hangs its hat on those cells moving to human consciousness over time through natural selection. If you have the slightest understanding of what collapsing wave function suggests, you'll need to demonstrate a process moving simple cells toward the ability to choose. Our current understanding of collapsing wave function would entirely deny the possibility.

I don't know where you got the idea that collapsing wave function suggests a process needs the ability to choose for moving simple cells toward more complex organism.

There are plenty of good videos out there. I would suggest the same video I linked to in the longer version of this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DIl3Hfh9tY Leonard Susskind is saying the very same thing I am saying, only you need a bit more time to hear it.

There is no mention of evolution at all in that video.

I am not saying that evolution is a cause. Science tries to convince us of this, then turns around and says, "No one says it's a cause of life." I am merely noting the double standard. You are making the claim that what I say is confirmed. It is not a cause. It's a result of intended programming. DNA is digital.

There is no double standard because no scientist ever tried to convince anyone that evolution is the cause of life.

Perhaps you need to read the two theories. One concerns energy, which IS information (See the video) and the other concerns the relative theory of information. Bits of information degrade over time, just as energy gives off heat as information is exchanged. Again, Susskind does a great job showing the relationship. He also shows why this is the defining moment for science in our century. Again, this is the difference between multiplicity and unity.

Nothing he said remotely resemble what you are trying to tell us. I have no idea why you think DNA can't assembling information naturally.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 4 by Goat]

I do not believe you are finding anything of value, but are just pulling numbers out, and randomly giving meaning there where there is none.

That is, until you do a slight bit of research.

http://www.greatdreams.com/153.htm

Nothing in the Bible is random. All of it outlines HydroGenesis.

And exactly why should I take this seriously?? that is the same kind of error the people who pull the 'bible code' do, and think they seem purposeful patterns in chance. It's people pretending there are meaning to chance patterns, but those patterns signify NOHTING

[scourge99]

I noticed that my first thread was moved to Random Rambling. As you view my challenge for debate below, realize that this is a topic from a larger platform of ideas. Consult the previous thread for more reasons for my foundation.

Its unreasonable and perhaps lazy to expect your opponents to parse your previous threads looking for diamonds in the rough. Rather than expecting people to read all your previous threads it would be best to paraphrase or copy/paste your statements from previous threads if they become relevant.

Here is my topic for debate: It seems to me that Collapsing Wave Function and Entropy in Information deny Evolution as a cause for life. Instead, it is better stated to be an intended result of Creation. Less a result of natural selection, it seems that evolution should be more accurately seen as alteration to programming. Here is my reasoning:

The theory of evolution (TOE) has nothing to say about abiogenesis. The theory of evolution only explains the DIVERSITY OF LIFE. It does not claim to explain how life originated. Conflating the two is a common error made by creationists.

The closest the ToE gets to abiogenesis is to posit that all known life has a common ancestor. I.E., common descent. But the TOE does NOT claim to explain how that common ancestor arose.

Any evolutionist, when pressed against the wall, will say that the theory does not suggest that evolution is the cause of life.

Its because it doesn't. Abiogenesis, panspermia, creationism, etc, are explanations for how life arose but the ToE is not.

If we consider the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, it is clear that collapsing wave function entirely denies the separation of matter from consciousness. For an indeterminate states of matter (High order and low entropy) to be changed toward purpose, there must be a consciousness collapsing the wave function to determine the new state.

Incorrect. The Copenhagen Interpretation mentions nothing about consciousness collapsing the wave function. The Copenhagen Interpretation mentions an "observer". What the Copenhagen Interpretation means by "observer" is anything that interacts with the quantum system that would require it to have a definite state. To quote Heisenberg, " Of course the introduction of the observer must not be misunderstood to imply that some kind of subjective features are to be brought into the description of nature. The observer has, rather, only the function of registering decisions, i.e., processes in space and time, and it does not matter whether the observer is an apparatus or a human being; but the registration, i.e., the transition from the "possible" to the "actual," is absolutely necessary here and cannot be omitted from the interpretation of quantum theory.

Mathematically, it could never be any other way. A quick examination of our current understanding of quantum mechanics denies the possibility that evolution could ever engage consciousness in life from Hydrogen and Helium in a state of high order. Evolution is the mechanism of change, but consciousness is the engine that governs the mechanics. Again, mathematics demonstrates this to be true. Water and light are the first matrix of life as you will come to see.

Given that your premise about the Copenhagen Interpretation requiring consciousness is wrong, i won't attempt to dig into this.

Entropy in Information

Getting over the first hurdle of collapsing wave function presupposes the next characteristic of our universe. Information degrades over time. To deny entropy toward a living consciousness is impossible apart from an original consciousness collapsing wave function. Many of you will hit reply at this point to say that entropy can be overcome in nature in some cases. You are likely referring to entropy in energy. Entropy in information is fundamentally different. When we examine DNA as a digital platform for rendering elements into conscious life, the notion of this information assembling itself is entirely denied. Entropy in information would kill any possibility in a harsh environment of hydrogen and helium. Again, the mathematics of entropy in information theory denies the possibility.

The law of thermodynamics regarding entropy is only about entropy in a CLOSED SYSTEM. The earth is not a closed system so complaining that there is a decrease in entropy on earth is a violation of the law is to misunderstand that law of thermodynamics.

Are these two theories the end of the debate for evolution as a cause for life and consciousness?

No. You have fundamental misunderstandings of the theory of evolution, the Copenhagen Interpretation, and thermodynamics which lead you to erroneous conclusions.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 6 by Bust Nak]

I don't know where you got the idea that collapsing wave function suggests a process needs the ability to choose for moving simple cells toward more complex organism.

Even the simple cells need to be explained. Chemiosmosis and the movement of ions across a selectively permeable membrane is a mechanical process with a motor. It's a tiny factory that defies our conception of it. Not only is the cell's ability to derive energy a fuel cell, it is the most efficient fuel cell we know can exist. We first need to know how this factory for energy first engaged as a complex and irreducible process. Design and engineering is obvious when it comes to cellular respiration, even to the simplest of minds.

Related Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbJ0nbzt5Kw

There is no mention of evolution at all in that video.

Because evolution is not the topic, but energy as information. We can deduce from this that consciousness is involved at every level of our reality. We are Created and Engineered life within an image of information, just as the Bible states.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Evolution is a process of involution and evolution from programming and adjustment to the design.

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

You must be born again.

There is no double standard because no scientist ever tried to convince anyone that evolution is the cause of life.

Can you say that with a straight face? Please recall the textbooks in our schools and the emphesis on life arising from the primordial goo. Peter Mitchell changed all that in 1978 when he showed the chemical and lightening theory as false. Still, the textbooks kept pointing toward evolution as the process that moved simple cells to the human construct. What I am demonstrating here is that collapsing wave function and entropy in information shows this to be an impossibility. Evolution is a result and not a cause. How many videos would you like for me to post here using the word evolution in relation to origins? Where would I begin?

Nothing he said remotely resemble what you are trying to tell us. I have no idea why you think DNA can't assembling information naturally.

God states clearly in His word that we are a construct of information as our source (John 1). He states that we are inside an image (Genesis 1:27). He states that we are constructed from this word into the image of Time, Space, Matter and Energy.

Genesis 1

In the Beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (SPACE) and the Earth (MATTER). Fiat Lux! Let there be light (ENERGY as INFORMATION).

In Genesis 3, we are introduced to the fruit of knowledge (Technology) and the Tree of life (DNA). In Revelation 13, we read that the mark of mankind is 666. That would be Carbon (6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons). Our fruit of knowledge (Technology) is the reason we die in the end by fire. We light the fire we burn by. We inherit perfected fruit of a rain forest and we will leave it a field of burning weeds.

DNA renders 22 proteins from amino acids. Just like the Hebrew language, there are 22 letters. Just like Hebrew, proteins are in three letter roots that form types of words, then paragraphs, the a human body in chains of sequences like language. When completed, the 22 pairs (44) of chromosomes plus 2 sex chromosomes make a concrete side of the mind and an abstract side of the mind. In language, Hebrew has 22 letters and is an agro-bio linguistic language based on the concrete and literal world. In Greek, there are 24 letters making up the abstract/mathematical side of linguistics. 46 letters match the 46 chromosomes as an image of Word rendering life and Word rendering illumination of the mind.

Again, is the acorn the oak tree? Does the acorn have an oak tree enfolded inside? The oak tree and the acorn are nothing apart from the essence of what is hidden in both.

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at Gods command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

You asked of DNA. You must see this from the scientific perspective, but not before you see it from the parable of who John is in the Bible that witnesses the Son of God to mankind. Understanding John is understanding how DNA saves our information and enfolds it to a new incarnation. You must be born again.

In 1 Kings 17, Elijah (John the Baptist) shuts off the water and dew. What is dew? Small drops from the ocean. Mankind represents those small drops. When Elijah shuts off the dew, there are no more incarnations. The sun rises, evaporates and distills the dew, then cycles again another time. Compare this to the 153 fish and the Measure of the Fish mentioned by Pythagoras.

Later in the chapter, Elijah meets the widow woman at Zarephath (meaning refinery). Her son died due to the drought. Elijah then takes her son 'up' to his chamber of rest, restores his soul, then brings him back down to the mother alive. This is involution and evolution in parable. Later, in the first century, Elijah comes back as John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:13-14

"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."

What was John/Elijah doing? Immersing in water to raise to new life (Evolution). What was Christ to this procedure? The Word / Wave / Information / Governor. He is the new blood of mankind (DNA). We inherit this new body (ROBE) when the wool of our sin is sheered and washed white as snow. Our new Robe is literally what we make it here in this life. What you bind here is bound in heaven.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

You must be born again. There is no choice. DNA is the tree of life. Time is needed and the procedure is involution and evolution.

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

[Bust Nak]

Even the simple cells need to be explained. Chemiosmosis and the movement of ions across a selectively permeable membrane is a mechanical process with a motor. It's a tiny factory that defies our conception of it. Not only is the cell's ability to derive energy a fuel cell, it is the most efficient fuel cell we know can exist. We first need to know how this factory for energy first engaged as a complex and irreducible process. Design and engineering is obvious when it comes to cellular respiration, even to the simplest of minds.

Related Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbJ0nbzt5Kw

Well firstly, what you are saying is false. Chemiosmosis is not beyond our conception of factory, it's not an irreducible process, and we understand it quite well, well enough infact to make that video you are showing. Secondly, what has any of this got to do with collapsing wave function or your claim that a process needs the ability to choose for moving simple cells toward more complex organism?

Because evolution is not the topic, but energy as information. We can deduce from this that consciousness is involved at every level of our reality.

Well, I would like to see how you deduce such a thing from anything in that video. Step by step if you will.

Evolution is a process of involution and evolution from programming and adjustment to the design.

Incorrect. Evolution is a is descent with modification, a mechanical process involving inheritable trait, imperfect copy and selection.

Can you say that with a straight face?

Of course.

Please recall the textbooks in our schools and the emphesis on life arising from the primordial goo.

Why would we want to do that? None of them claim evolution is the cause of life.

Peter Mitchell changed all that in 1978 when he showed the chemical and lightening theory as false. Still, the textbooks kept pointing toward evolution as the process that moved simple cells to the human construct.

Why wouldn't textbooks keep point out that? I am sure Peter Mitchell would have agreed that evolution is the process that moved simple cells to the human construct.

What I am demonstrating here is that collapsing wave function and entropy in information shows this to be an impossibility. Evolution is a result and not a cause. How many videos would you like for me to post here using the word evolution in relation to origins? Where would I begin?

It would be more accurate to say attempting to demonstrate. A video that actually explain your thinking would be nice. But what I would really like is scientific studies backed up with empirical evidence.

God states clearly in His word that we are a construct of information as our source (John 1). He states that we are inside an image (Genesis 1:27). He states that we are constructed from this word into the image of Time, Space, Matter and Energy...

What's the point of bringing in entropy or information in the first place if you are just going to switch to "god speech" when challenged? Have you got anything that can be understood without being born again to back up your claims? How are you concluding DNA can't assembling information naturally from Leonard Susskind's lecture, or anything related to entropy for that matter?