The History of Air?

[Volbrigade]

Lists of “fun facts� can be entertaining. Those focused on natural phenomena are a good way to promote an interest in science, and what it reveals to us about God’s creation, by drawing our attention to items that awaken our wonder and awe. Clearly, God has equipped us with curiosity regarding the workings of the natural world; as well as the capacity to explore and understand how He has designed it (which is the proper function of science).

However, “fun� facts are not fun, if they are not facts.

But that is what uniformitarian (“the present is the key to the past�; slow, gradual changes over vast expanses of time), evolutionist presuppositions are consistently presented as: unarguable facts -- which they categorically are not.

Case in point: a recent online infographic presenting “50 Unbelievable Facts About the Earth�.

While many of the facts are grounded in operational science, which involves direct observation and measurement – for instance, the hottest and coldest surface temperatures ever recorded; or the number of times that lightning strikes the earth each day, on average; several “facts� involve speculation as to events and conditions that occurred “millions of years� ago. For instance, this one:

“Dinosaurs could only exist because… the earth’s atmosphere once contained far more oxygen. Reptiles and amphibians can no longer grow to such large sizes.� ( http://mightymega.com/2013/04/18/infogr ... out-earth/ )

A Young Earth Creationist (YEC) is tempted to embrace this claim -- although with stipulations. On the face of it, it appears to support models of a dramatically different pre-Flood global environment. Our current post-Flood environment has been altered by the cataclysmic events associated with the release of the “Fountains of the Deep� (Genesis 8:2); the subsequent submersion of the earth’s entire surface under water; and the massive climatic changes that those events triggered, including an Ice Age that lasted several centuries.

The disappearance of the giant dinosaurs and arthropods in the altered post-Flood environment suggests that their inability to thrive in its lower-oxygen atmosphere may have been a cause. It would seem that conceding the “fact� of higher oxygen levels in the past, makes it possible to win the argument on this point when discussing origins and history. Changing the paradigm of those higher oxygen levels to a pre-Flood environment reinterprets the existing data in terms of a Biblical “lens�, or worldview. This kind of paradigm change applies to such pivotal factors as the fossil record and radiometric dating, as well.

But caution is advised. The eagerness to accept a theory in order to score a point with regard to Biblical truth must be tempered with careful scientific analysis of the existing theory. This kind of testing is needed to determine the theory’s validity under “real world� conditions.

This speaks to the non-negotiable framework that must be adhered to in terms of Scripture’s magisterial role over science. It is within that framework that normal scientific operational procedures can be used to arrive at the best explanations to describe past phenomena (for which direct observation and measurement is not possible), based on the forensic evidence those phenomena have left for us to study.

Sometimes this process involves acknowledging the slaying of a “beautiful hypothesis� by an “ugly fact� (per T. Huxley). An unyielding, uncompromising approach to analyzing evidence has produced a revision of several arguments once cherished by YECs. In this way, science – in its proper ministerial (subordinate) role to Scripture, can arrive at the best possible explanation for the evidence as presented.

In the case of higher oxygen levels in the pre-Flood atmosphere as an explanation for the large size attained by reptiles, amphibians, and arthropods in that environment (and their disappearance in the post-Flood environment), the evidence is not just inconclusive: it is questionable (some of the factors which have been reassessed include the presence of higher oxygen levels in amber air bubbles; higher air pressure being necessary for pterosaur flight; giant insects proving higher oxygen levels; et. al.).

Facts arrived at through scientific analysis that illuminate the design and order God imposed on His creation – even the fallen version of it that we inhabit – are fascinating, and they’re fun. But erroneous presuppositions (such as “matter is all that exists�) lead to false conclusions; and when those false conclusions are presented as “facts�, it’s not fun – but rather leads to confusion, and what The Bible refers to as “false knowledge� (1 Timothy 6:20).

Scientific analysis of the evidence must be viewed in the context of Scripture as “propositional truth� in order to arrive at the legitimate facts of nature, which is God’s creation.

[Divine Insight]

But caution is advised. The eagerness to accept a theory in order to score a point with regard to Biblical truth must be tempered with careful scientific analysis of the existing theory. This kind of testing is needed to determine the theory’s validity under “real world� conditions.

In my view anyone who is trying to validate the Bible in terms of scientific evidence of facts is in total denial of the overall biblical stories.

I personally do not even need any scientific evidence at all to reject the biblical stories. The self-inconsistency and total contradictions of the behavior of the God portrayed in the Bible is sufficient to reject it as clearly being nothing more than superstitious rumors. No science is even require to dismiss it.

However, if we want to look at the scientific evidence against the Bible it's extremely easy to dismiss it in one fell swoop with a very simple single observation.

The Biblical fables claim that mankind brought death, sin, and all manner of imperfections into the world, which would naturally include disease etc. This was brought into the world because of mankind's supposed "Fall from Grace".

This is the pillar upon which the biblical fables are built. It's is this fall from grace that all men supposedly need to overcome and make amends for. In short the Biblical fables are attempting to lay an accusatory guilt trip on humans for all the ills of the world.

However, we now know that diseases, and all manner of imperfections and natural disasters had always occurred on planet Earth long before humans ever showed up. Animals at each other and preyed on the eggs and babies of their neighbors.

So the very claim that humans are somehow responsible for the world being naturally dog-eat-dog and filled with disease and all manner of things that are less than "nice" is total baloney.

The bible is based on an accusation toward humanity that is simply and clearly false.

Any other "scientific details" are superfluous at this point. The Biblical claims cannot possibly be true. Period.

And we don't even need this scientific fact to know this. We can see that the God character within these fables is neither wise, nor benevolent. So he doesn't even own up to the traits that have been given to him by the authors of these fables.

The Bible is a self-destructive collection of fables. No science is even required to dismiss it.

[sfs]

But caution is advised. The eagerness to accept a theory in order to score a point with regard to Biblical truth must be tempered with careful scientific analysis of the existing theory. This kind of testing is needed to determine the theory’s validity under “real world� conditions.

Under real world conditions, young earth creationists do not subject theories to scientific analysis, because . . .

This speaks to the non-negotiable framework that must be adhered to in terms of Scripture’s magisterial role over science

this framework rules out scientific analysis.

[Volbrigade]

The two responses so far are typical of those expressing a differing ontology, which is derived from a different epistemology, than that expressed in the OP. DI and sfs are convinced that theirs are the true one(s); I disagree. Scientific proofs are unavailable in either case. We are left with making inferences as to which corresponds to the truth, as it exists in realty.

Science leaves us without a standard in regard to both cosmic origins, and the origin of life. The only standard we're aware of is that "everything that has a beginning must have a cause". That includes the "quantum fluctuation" that has been dreamt up to explain the beginning of matter, apart from its creation by an eternal God who has no beginning. And the complexity of the mechanisms that must exist, simultaneously, and symbiotically, in order for the most simple life forms to exist, preclude their being caused by random, naturalistic processes.

We must look elsewhere for explanations.

I believe those explanations are to be found in the coded, integrated message system we call The Bible. There are many reasons to accept it as being imparted by the One who exists in a different dimensional domain than the one we inhabit; not the least of which is its unparalleled quality of foretelling details about future events, which authenticates its authorship (through the inspiration of its writers) by One who "knows the end from the beginning", and stands outside of the dimension of time, which He created.

If you accept that, then the interpretation of the forensic data of natural history will obviously be much different than if you reject it. And if it is true; then those interpretations stand to be in closer proximity to the truth.

For example: the standard evolutionist model (based on materialist presuppositions) is that matter happily and accidentally coalesced into the protein codes (as well as the other complex structures) needed for life; and proceeded to develop by unguided processes from molecules to men; a process which required billions of years. The fossil record, it is claimed, is a record of this process, written in stone -- the total absence of transitional forms depicting the transformation of one organism into another kind of organism notwithstanding.

The billions of years of uphill informational increases to the genome of life (for which there is no known satisfactory mechanism or example) also correspond to billions of years of disease, carnivory, and death.

That is the myth that we have all been indoctrinated in.

The truth is considerably different.

The fact that God "cursed the ground" for Adam's (Man's) sake -- a curse which extends to the entire physical, natural order -- is the result of the sin and death which his (Adam's) disobedience brought into the world.

The geologic and fossil records are the record of the massive, global, catastrophic tectonic events and vulcanism associated with the Flood of Noah, in which examples of the entire animal and plant kingdoms extant at that time were rapidly encased in avalanches of sediment.

That explains how and why ephemeral structures such as ripples and footprints, as well as only slightly less ephemeral forms such as jellyfish and octopi and squids, were preserved; and why we find so little, if any, examples of fossilization occurring today. It is very difficult, for instance, to fossilize a fish: they die, they float, they are scavenged. Unless they are buried very rapidly, as they have been -- along with the rest of the organisms we uncover -- all over the world, in a simultaneous event approximately 4,500 years ago.

[sfs]

[Replying to post 4 by Volbrigade]
You seem to have me confused with someone else. I made no claims about the truth or falsity of your beliefs regarding the history of life and the universe, and I espoused neither an ontology nor an epistemology. I simply pointed out that, whatever it is you're doing, it's not science.

[10CC]

The two responses so far are typical of those expressing a differing ontology, which is derived from a different epistemology, than that expressed in the OP. DI and sfs are convinced that theirs are the true one(s); I disagree. Scientific proofs are unavailable in either case. We are left with making inferences as to which corresponds to the truth, as it exists in realty.

Science leaves us without a standard in regard to both cosmic origins, and the origin of life. The only standard we're aware of is that "everything that has a beginning must have a cause". That includes the "quantum fluctuation" that has been dreamt up to explain the beginning of matter, apart from its creation by an eternal God who has no beginning. And the complexity of the mechanisms that must exist, simultaneously, and symbiotically, in order for the most simple life forms to exist, preclude their being caused by random, naturalistic processes.

We must look elsewhere for explanations.

I believe those explanations are to be found in the coded, integrated message system we call The Bible. There are many reasons to accept it as being imparted by the One who exists in a different dimensional domain than the one we inhabit; not the least of which is its unparalleled quality of foretelling details about future events, which authenticates its authorship (through the inspiration of its writers) by One who "knows the end from the beginning", and stands outside of the dimension of time, which He created.

If you accept that, then the interpretation of the forensic data of natural history will obviously be much different than if you reject it. And if it is true; then those interpretations stand to be in closer proximity to the truth.

For example: the standard evolutionist model (based on materialist presuppositions) is that matter happily and accidentally coalesced into the protein codes (as well as the other complex structures) needed for life; and proceeded to develop by unguided processes from molecules to men; a process which required billions of years. The fossil record, it is claimed, is a record of this process, written in stone -- the total absence of transitional forms depicting the transformation of one organism into another kind of organism notwithstanding.

The billions of years of uphill informational increases to the genome of life (for which there is no known satisfactory mechanism or example) also correspond to billions of years of disease, carnivory, and death.

That is the myth that we have all been indoctrinated in.

The truth is considerably different.

The fact that God "cursed the ground" for Adam's (Man's) sake -- a curse which extends to the entire physical, natural order -- is the result of the sin and death which his (Adam's) disobedience brought into the world.

The geologic and fossil records are the record of the massive, global, catastrophic tectonic events and vulcanism associated with the Flood of Noah, in which examples of the entire animal and plant kingdoms extant at that time were rapidly encased in avalanches of sediment.

That explains how and why ephemeral structures such as ripples and footprints, as well as only slightly less ephemeral forms such as jellyfish and octopi and squids, were preserved; and why we find so little, if any, examples of fossilization occurring today. It is very difficult, for instance, to fossilize a fish: they die, they float, they are scavenged. Unless they are buried very rapidly, as they have been -- along with the rest of the organisms we uncover -- all over the world, in a simultaneous event approximately 4,500 years ago.

Isn't it amazing that the only people on here who argue against evolution have an understanding and knowledge of evolution that even evolutionists reject.

We are all in agreement, what you propose as evolution, no one believes.

And especially the "evidence" you propose is not believed by anyone
Next.

[Volbrigade]

The two responses so far are typical of those expressing a differing ontology, which is derived from a different epistemology, than that expressed in the OP. DI and sfs are convinced that theirs are the true one(s); I disagree. Scientific proofs are unavailable in either case. We are left with making inferences as to which corresponds to the truth, as it exists in realty.

Science leaves us without a standard in regard to both cosmic origins, and the origin of life. The only standard we're aware of is that "everything that has a beginning must have a cause". That includes the "quantum fluctuation" that has been dreamt up to explain the beginning of matter, apart from its creation by an eternal God who has no beginning. And the complexity of the mechanisms that must exist, simultaneously, and symbiotically, in order for the most simple life forms to exist, preclude their being caused by random, naturalistic processes.

We must look elsewhere for explanations.

I believe those explanations are to be found in the coded, integrated message system we call The Bible. There are many reasons to accept it as being imparted by the One who exists in a different dimensional domain than the one we inhabit; not the least of which is its unparalleled quality of foretelling details about future events, which authenticates its authorship (through the inspiration of its writers) by One who "knows the end from the beginning", and stands outside of the dimension of time, which He created.

If you accept that, then the interpretation of the forensic data of natural history will obviously be much different than if you reject it. And if it is true; then those interpretations stand to be in closer proximity to the truth.

For example: the standard evolutionist model (based on materialist presuppositions) is that matter happily and accidentally coalesced into the protein codes (as well as the other complex structures) needed for life; and proceeded to develop by unguided processes from molecules to men; a process which required billions of years. The fossil record, it is claimed, is a record of this process, written in stone -- the total absence of transitional forms depicting the transformation of one organism into another kind of organism notwithstanding.

The billions of years of uphill informational increases to the genome of life (for which there is no known satisfactory mechanism or example) also correspond to billions of years of disease, carnivory, and death.

That is the myth that we have all been indoctrinated in.

The truth is considerably different.

The fact that God "cursed the ground" for Adam's (Man's) sake -- a curse which extends to the entire physical, natural order -- is the result of the sin and death which his (Adam's) disobedience brought into the world.

The geologic and fossil records are the record of the massive, global, catastrophic tectonic events and vulcanism associated with the Flood of Noah, in which examples of the entire animal and plant kingdoms extant at that time were rapidly encased in avalanches of sediment.

That explains how and why ephemeral structures such as ripples and footprints, as well as only slightly less ephemeral forms such as jellyfish and octopi and squids, were preserved; and why we find so little, if any, examples of fossilization occurring today. It is very difficult, for instance, to fossilize a fish: they die, they float, they are scavenged. Unless they are buried very rapidly, as they have been -- along with the rest of the organisms we uncover -- all over the world, in a simultaneous event approximately 4,500 years ago.

Isn't it amazing that the only people on here who argue against evolution have an understanding and knowledge of evolution that even evolutionists reject.

We are all in agreement, what you propose as evolution, no one believes.

And especially the "evidence" you propose is not believed by anyone
Next.

Well, gee... since you put it that way; if you say so, then of course.

Waitaminnit... on second thought...

No, I don't agree with you. In fact, I stand behind every word I've written.

Perhaps you'd care to share your definition of Evolution? Wait -- don't tell me, let guess:

"changes in an allele?"

[Star]

Clearly, God has equipped us with curiosity regarding the workings of the natural world; as well as the capacity to explore and understand how He has designed it (which is the proper function of science).

No, understanding how god designed the natural world isn’t the function of science. Understanding the natural world is the function of science. See what I did there?

But that is what uniformitarian (“the present is the key to the past�; slow, gradual changes over vast expanses of time), evolutionist presuppositions are consistently presented as: unarguable facts -- which they categorically are not.

We might not know everything about evolution (yet), but it’s an unarguable fact that it happens. Scientists reached a consensus long ago. They’re now filling in the details. Do you have any evidence of intelligent design, by the way? There’s plenty of evidence for evolution.

The only standard we're aware of is that "everything that has a beginning must have a cause". That includes the "quantum fluctuation" that has been dreamt up to explain the beginning of matter, apart from its creation by an eternal God who has no beginning. And the complexity of the mechanisms that must exist, simultaneously, and symbiotically, in order for the most simple life forms to exist, preclude their being caused by random, naturalistic processes.

This is special pleading. You can’t logically argue that your god has no beginning but everything else must. Explain why your god can have no beginning, while natural forces can’t have the same special ability. You have essentially invented a god that’s infinitely more complex in order to explain the existence of a relatively less-complex universe.

I believe those explanations are to be found in the coded, integrated message system we call The Bible. There are many reasons to accept it as being imparted by the One who exists in a different dimensional domain than the one we inhabit; not the least of which is its unparalleled quality of foretelling details about future events, which authenticates its authorship (through the inspiration of its writers) by One who "knows the end from the beginning", and stands outside of the dimension of time, which He created.

Circular logic. You believe it’s true because it says it is. It’s true because you believe it is. You believe it, because it’s true, and around and around you go. We can't consider that as being evidence for much of anything other than human gullibility and superstition.

For example: the standard evolutionist model (based on materialist presuppositions) is that matter happily and accidentally coalesced into the protein codes (as well as the other complex structures) needed for life; and proceeded to develop by unguided processes from molecules to men; a process which required billions of years. The fossil record, it is claimed, is a record of this process, written in stone -- the total absence of transitional forms depicting the transformation of one organism into another kind of organism notwithstanding.

What’s a “protein code�? You have different terminology than I do. My people call them “amino acid molecules�
Evolutionary theory doesn’t deal with where life came from. This is a common apologist misconception I’ve corrected countless times. You’re thinking of a/biogenesis, and to a lesser extent, the Big Bang. These had to occur for evolution to happen, but they are not evolution. I encourage you to do some reading on evolution so you can have a better understanding next time.

The geologic and fossil records are the record of the massive, global, catastrophic tectonic events and vulcanism associated with the Flood of Noah, in which examples of the entire animal and plant kingdoms extant at that time were rapidly encased in avalanches of sediment.

This is easily-debunked creationist propaganda. There is no evidence of a global flood. If there was, other than the immature fable of Noah, you would show us. Creationists never do, and you won’t either (although might think you are).

Meanwhile, there is evidence of local floods, oceans, rivers, lakes, swamps, marshes, bogs, streams, waterfalls, and anything else associated with water. It leaves evidence nearly everywhere it goes, and it’s had billions of years to do so. Don’t confuse any of this with evidence for a global event. You must have a better understanding of the science before this will make sense to you.

Facts arrived at through scientific analysis that illuminate the design and order God imposed on His creation – even the fallen version of it that we inhabit – are fascinating, and they’re fun. But erroneous presuppositions (such as “matter is all that exists�) lead to false conclusions; and when those false conclusions are presented as “facts�, it’s not fun – but rather leads to confusion, and what The Bible refers to as “false knowledge� (1 Timothy 6:20).

Strawman. Science definitely doesn’t say that matter is all that exists. I’m not sure where you get your information from, but a lot of it’s wrong. Also, atheists don’t really care what the Bible says. You can’t use it as your only evidence here.

[10CC]

The two responses so far are typical of those expressing a differing ontology, which is derived from a different epistemology, than that expressed in the OP. DI and sfs are convinced that theirs are the true one(s); I disagree. Scientific proofs are unavailable in either case. We are left with making inferences as to which corresponds to the truth, as it exists in realty.

Science leaves us without a standard in regard to both cosmic origins, and the origin of life. The only standard we're aware of is that "everything that has a beginning must have a cause". That includes the "quantum fluctuation" that has been dreamt up to explain the beginning of matter, apart from its creation by an eternal God who has no beginning. And the complexity of the mechanisms that must exist, simultaneously, and symbiotically, in order for the most simple life forms to exist, preclude their being caused by random, naturalistic processes.

We must look elsewhere for explanations.

I believe those explanations are to be found in the coded, integrated message system we call The Bible. There are many reasons to accept it as being imparted by the One who exists in a different dimensional domain than the one we inhabit; not the least of which is its unparalleled quality of foretelling details about future events, which authenticates its authorship (through the inspiration of its writers) by One who "knows the end from the beginning", and stands outside of the dimension of time, which He created.

If you accept that, then the interpretation of the forensic data of natural history will obviously be much different than if you reject it. And if it is true; then those interpretations stand to be in closer proximity to the truth.

For example: the standard evolutionist model (based on materialist presuppositions) is that matter happily and accidentally coalesced into the protein codes (as well as the other complex structures) needed for life; and proceeded to develop by unguided processes from molecules to men; a process which required billions of years. The fossil record, it is claimed, is a record of this process, written in stone -- the total absence of transitional forms depicting the transformation of one organism into another kind of organism notwithstanding.

The billions of years of uphill informational increases to the genome of life (for which there is no known satisfactory mechanism or example) also correspond to billions of years of disease, carnivory, and death.

That is the myth that we have all been indoctrinated in.

The truth is considerably different.

The fact that God "cursed the ground" for Adam's (Man's) sake -- a curse which extends to the entire physical, natural order -- is the result of the sin and death which his (Adam's) disobedience brought into the world.

The geologic and fossil records are the record of the massive, global, catastrophic tectonic events and vulcanism associated with the Flood of Noah, in which examples of the entire animal and plant kingdoms extant at that time were rapidly encased in avalanches of sediment.

That explains how and why ephemeral structures such as ripples and footprints, as well as only slightly less ephemeral forms such as jellyfish and octopi and squids, were preserved; and why we find so little, if any, examples of fossilization occurring today. It is very difficult, for instance, to fossilize a fish: they die, they float, they are scavenged. Unless they are buried very rapidly, as they have been -- along with the rest of the organisms we uncover -- all over the world, in a simultaneous event approximately 4,500 years ago.

Isn't it amazing that the only people on here who argue against evolution have an understanding and knowledge of evolution that even evolutionists reject.

We are all in agreement, what you propose as evolution, no one believes.

And especially the "evidence" you propose is not believed by anyone
Next.

Well, gee... since you put it that way; if you say so, then of course.

Waitaminnit... on second thought...

No, I don't agree with you. In fact, I stand behind every word I've written.

Perhaps you'd care to share your definition of Evolution? Wait -- don't tell me, let guess:

"changes in an allele?"

Oh come now, I think you're being a little bit silly.

Evolution is the reason religion is dying, humans no longer need a sky daddy to know where thunder comes from.

And that young fella is EVOLUTION. Ain't it grand?

[Star]

Index to Creationist Claims
Claim CC360: No new fossils are being formed

Claim: Few or no new fossils are being formed. Fossils must have been produced by radically different conditions (a global flood) in the past.

Response:

The mechanisms by which fossils form are still occurring. We do not often observe them because they are generally out of sight or rare, but they still happen.

The La Brea Tar Pits have trapped and preserved animals (and at least one person) in recent times.

Pompeii preserved many bodies in 79 C.E.

Sediments from rivers still cover corpses in their deltas.

Insects and plants are being covered by geyser deposits.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC360.html



Claim CC362: Large collections of fossils indicate catastrophism

Claim: There are many places where fossils occur in great numbers. These vast fossil beds indicate catastrophic rapid burial, not gradualistic conditions.

Response:

1. Great numbers of fossils in one area indicate great numbers of animals dying in that area (or, in some cases, their bodies being transported there). Usually, this argues against rapid burial, because that many animals are not found together at once in life. A simpler explanation is that animals have died in the area over many years. For example, one mass burial is at the La Brea Tar Pits, which have been trapping animals for thousands of years.

2. In fact, vast fossil beds are evidence against catastrophic rapid burial. One formation alone (the Karroo Formation in Africa) is estimated to contain 800 billion vertebrate fossils. If that is just 1 percent of the world's fossils, there must be 2100 vertebrate animals per acre, far more than we see today (Schadewald 1982). Fossil plant remains, such as coal, are almost 100 times more massive than living plant biomass (Poldervaart 1955; Ricklefs 1993).

3. Mass kills can occur through normal processes. Every year, hundreds of wildebeests drown during river crossings on their annual migration. Their bodies wash up on river banks. Collapse of the stream banks could bury many. Other local catastrophes can also kill many animals at once.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC362.html