Why is homophobia tolerated here?

[Haven]

If a person were to join this forum making racist comments, using and implying racial slurs, and saying that racial minorities were disgusting, evil, and inherently inferior, they would certainly be swiftly banned (and rightly so!). This person could say the same things about women, people from certain countries, people with disabilities, and the reaction would be the same -- a swift ban.

However, on this forum -- which prides itself on civility -- people can make bigoted and untrue comments about lesbians, gays, and bisexuals with absolutely no consequences. Not so much as a warning. Certain members have been making blatantly homophobic statements for years without even a moderator comment.

Why the double standard? Why is racism banned, but homophobia and heterosexual supremacy tolerated? Are LGB people somehow a less-deserving minority?

[Lion IRC]

I think Divine Insight didn't read my post carefully enough and presumed I was talking about therapy to reverse homosexual tendencies.

...No. I knew exactly what you are talking about. I simply disagree with your perspective on it. In fact, I quite profoundly disagree with your perspective on it.

Um, excuse me. I was referencing gay people who have latent, internalized homophobia. They can and DO obtain professional therapeutic help to remedy THEIR homophobia.
It has nothing to do with me! I'm not gay. I do not have internalised homophobia.

...If you claim to have a fear of homosexuality and you, yourself, have no homosexual desires, then your fear is totally ungrounded.

I do not fear homosexuality.
The word homophobia (when used correctly) does not apply to me.

... You wouldn't need to go to any therapy to have your fear of homosexuality addressed.

Correct. I have no such fear.
In fact if you listened closely to biblical theists, you would see that when they talk of 'sin' in the same sentence as homosexual behaviour it is by way of pointing out, not that they fear the consequences, but that someone else should.

...Evidently what you have is nothing more than an aversion to something that you clearly do not understand.

False. I understand precisely what it is I dislike.

...People tend to fear what they don't understand.

Well many gay people with internalised homophobia seek professional therapy to gain understanding and therein lies the reparative cure to their homophobia.

... You don't need therapy to learn how to not fear being homosexually oriented.

I don't. But that's because I don't fear homosexuality. But clearly some people do voluntarily seek reparative therapy for their latent homophobic tendencies.

...All you need to do is realize that some people truly do have homosexual orientations and that this is perfectly natural for them.

Sure. I already 'realize' that.
I would never argue that gay people don't enjoy their preferred lifestyle or think it anything but natural - for them.

... Then you would realize that there is nothing to fear, and your fears would then subside.

I'm not sure why you keep presuming that I fear homosexual behaviour. I don't fear stuff that

... And so would your hostility toward people who do have natural homosexual desires.

I have no hostility toward people.c

[Divine Insight]

I do not fear homosexuality.
The word homophobia (when used correctly) does not apply to me.

In that case, then I simply don't understand what your argument is on this topic.

Earlier you said:

If I was born with a genetic aversion to homosexual behaviour I would simply assert my right to be who I am.

To which I responded:

No one here is questioning your right to be who you are in terms of sexual orientation.

But then later you replied to Hamsaka

And if you are allowed to 'spew' your opinions all around the place, why can't others spew theirs right back at you?

You like equal rights? You like tolerance? You like diversity?

I don't understand what "spewing opinions" has to do with your aversion to homosexuality?

After all, I'm 100% heterosexually oriented too. The thought of becoming sexually intimate with another man is very distasteful to me. So in this sense you could say that I too have an aversion to participating in homosexual activities.

But where is there any need to "spew opinions" about that. All I need to say is that I'm not gay. Period. In fact, there's no need to even call that an opinion, it's just a fact about me.

So what does your "natural aversion to homosexuality" have to do with homophobia and what is your point in this thread if you are not homophobic and have nothing to say about homophobia?

And why do you feel a need to "spew" your natural aversion of homosexuality toward other people as an opinion?

As I say, I have a "natural aversion" to participating in homosexual activities myself. But I see no reason to "spew" that toward other people as an "opinion". Especially not as an opinion concerning their natural sexual orientations.

What they do has nothing at all to do with me.

So what point are you trying to make in this thread?

I guess I just don't understand what you are attempting to argue for.

[enviousintheeverafter]

I do not fear homosexuality.
The word homophobia (when used correctly) does not apply to me.

The second sentence doesn't follow from the first; one can be homophobic without fearing homosexuality. As has been pointed out, the word "homophobia" means a whole range of negative views/valuations of homosexuality ranging from fear and hatred, to disgust/discomfort, to moral opposition. Clearly you're confused about what this word means (which is easy enough to remedy- try Google), and are more objecting to the negative connotation than to the literal application.

[Lion IRC]

[Replying to post 92 by enviousintheeverafter]

Phobia -
An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror, hatred, loathing, detestation, distaste, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, repulsion;

None of the above apply to me. Nothing extreme or irrational about opposing SSM or believing in gender-balanced nuclear families.

[Lion IRC]

I always show civility and respect to LGBTQI people.

But sometimes the political correctness of language gets in the way and everyday words are labelled as "offensive" despite the fact that the person using them has no malice and no idea that certain minorities regard those words as tantamount to hate speech.

It's kind of tricky for non-LGBTQI people like me to know in advance which expressions people will and won't find offensive and its sad that many pre-judge the motives of people who otherwise seek open dialogue.

FWIW and I'm not concern trolling - spokespeople for the interests of LGBTQI folk would do well to allow more good-faith dialogue which recognizes that billions of CIS gender human beings would have no idea which words LGBTQI ppl find offensive.

What is hard about showing others basic human respect by not using words they consider offensive?

I don't know.
Ask prominent gay rights activist Stephen Fry (Trigger warning - offensive language)

...If someone finds terms like "homosexual" and "transgenderism" offensive, then why continue to use them, especially when perfectly good alternatives are available?

Well the problem is that people (of good will) use, ostensibly, plain language and they are expected to change their vernacular to accomodate what they would see as "tone policing" and thought control. If they don't intend it as a pejorative and you know that they don't intend it that way, then where really does the lack of good will originate? If we spoke different languages, which one of us should give up their native tongue just just to accomodate the whims of the other who decided that we should all speak a certain way?

Someone said (elsewhere) that the term "wishful thinking" was deeply offensive
Is it really though? Wishful thinking site:debatingchristianity.com
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 679#729679

...Refusing to use non-offensive language just seems like doubling down on prejudice to me.

Refusing to accept that ordinary people might use the word homosexual in a generic, non-offensive way seems like doubling down to me. Why does it have to be my-way-or-the-highway?

...If you want to know which words are offensive to the LGBTQIA community, this site is a good place to start: http://www.glaad.org/reference/offensive ; http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

Do you agree that getting people to conform to a desired collectivism when it comes to language and controlling the dialectic is an effective method of social engineering?

[enviousintheeverafter]

[Replying to post 92 by enviousintheeverafter]

Phobia -
An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror, hatred, loathing, detestation, distaste, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, repulsion;

None of the above apply to me. Nothing extreme or irrational about opposing SSM or believing in gender-balanced nuclear families.

That's not what "homophobia" means. Homophobia is not the phobia of homosexuality. This is a genetic fallacy.

"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)." (Wiki's, cited from Adams/Bell/Griffin 2007, Renzetti/Edleson 2008, Schuiling/Likis 2007)

Ordinary dictionary definitions, so far as they go, bear this out-

ho·mo·pho·bi·a
ˌh�məˈf�bēə/Submit
noun
dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.

So, some imaginary definition of homophobia may not apply. But actual homophobia- opposition to, dislike/fear/hatred of, prejudice against homosexuals- is almost assuredly a different story.

[Haven]

Well the problem is that people (of good will) use, ostensibly, plain language and they are expected to change their vernacular to accomodate what they would see as "tone policing" and thought control. If they don't intend it as a pejorative and you know that they don't intend it that way, then where really does the lack of good will originate? If we spoke different languages, which one of us should give up their native tongue just just to accomodate the whims of the other who decided that we should all speak a certain way?

Why not just respect people by using preferred terms? If someone tells a person that a term offends them, why should that person continue to use that term unless they're doing it specifically to offend? If non-offensive alternatives are available, why not use them? It's about treating people with respect.

Someone said (elsewhere) that the term "wishful thinking" was deeply offensive
Is it really though? Wishful thinking site:debatingchristianity.com
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 679#729679

I never said the term "wishful thinking" is offensive, I said using "wishful thinking" to describe gender dysphoria is ignorant and offensive. There's a big difference between those two things.

[OpenYourEyes]

I don't consider referring to any biological male as being a male as being offensive. Just as they do at my job, if you want to claim to be another sex, go get checked out at your local Health Department, get the proper documentation, legal or otherwise, then we can go from there. Otherwise, you will have perverted males making the same excuse just to prey on women.

Only people who are actually born with gender dimorphic disorders have this exception, in my mind. For all others, it falls short in my opinion.

[Lion IRC]

[Replying to post 92 by enviousintheeverafter]

Phobia -
An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror, hatred, loathing, detestation, distaste, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, repulsion;

None of the above apply to me. Nothing extreme or irrational about opposing SSM or believing in gender-balanced nuclear families.

That's not what "homophobia" means. Homophobia is not the phobia of homosexuality. This is a genetic fallacy.

Um, I think you need to review the definition/meaning of genetic fallacy.
I'm talking about the etymology of the word and its original meaning.
homo (from homosexual) +‎ -phobia (morbid irrational fear)
Fear, dislike, or hatred of homosexuals.

There's no dispute that a more recent, derogatory connotation has been developed as a means of labelling ANYONE who objects to homosexual behaviour, same-sex 'marriage, gay adoption, etc. - irrespective of the rational basis for holding such views.

The tag 'hate speech' and use of the word homophobe as an epithet or abusive ad hominem against ones ideological opponent actually IS a form of logical fallacy.

I accept that words change meaning over time. But calling people names doesn't make it so. Many gay people oppose SSM and yet they don't hate gay people.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 96 by Haven]

Why not just respect people by using preferred terms? If someone tells a person that a term offends them, why should that person continue to use that term unless they're doing it specifically to offend? If non-offensive alternatives are available, why not use them? It's about treating people with respect.

Because reality matters, or truth matters more. For instance by your logic if I ask you to call me god then you would have to.