Why is homophobia tolerated here?

[Haven]

If a person were to join this forum making racist comments, using and implying racial slurs, and saying that racial minorities were disgusting, evil, and inherently inferior, they would certainly be swiftly banned (and rightly so!). This person could say the same things about women, people from certain countries, people with disabilities, and the reaction would be the same -- a swift ban.

However, on this forum -- which prides itself on civility -- people can make bigoted and untrue comments about lesbians, gays, and bisexuals with absolutely no consequences. Not so much as a warning. Certain members have been making blatantly homophobic statements for years without even a moderator comment.

Why the double standard? Why is racism banned, but homophobia and heterosexual supremacy tolerated? Are LGB people somehow a less-deserving minority?

[Danmark]

....Just love your neighbor or quit calling yourself "Christians."

I detect a false dilemma fallacy.

There is no fallacy here. Jesus made it clear that those who claim to be followers are not followers of his because of their claim, but because of their deeds.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
_ Matthew 7

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying,
‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
_ Matthew 25

[OpenYourEyes]

One thing [strike]we[/strike] [Danmark] know for certain. You do not speak for him.

Just correcting your unsupported claim. Continue on with your opinion.

[Haven]

There really is so much misinformation out there on trans people.

I accept that certain high profile celebrities may themselves want to look in a mirror and see a different gender than the one which doctors (with medical degrees) put on their birth certificate.

Doctors don't put genders on birth certificates, they put biological sexes there. Gender and sex are, contrary to popular belief, not the same thing. Sex refers to the biological characteristics marking someone as female, intersex, or male, while gender refers to the psychological and cultural traits that usually, but not always, align with sex. A transgender person is someone whose brain-based gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth. A cisgender person is someone whose brain-based gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth. Neither type of person is "better" or more "normal" than the other.

But to what extent must I agree with their autogynefilia?

Autogynephilia (the sexual arousal at the idea of oneself as a woman) and a transgender woman identity (the internal, brain-based identification with the feminine gender) are not even remotely the same thing. The first is about sexual arousal, while the second is about internal identity.

Also, what about transgender men (men who were assigned female at birth)? Or people who don't identify with either male or female? Not all trans people were assigned male at birth or identify as women.

I'm increasingly baffled by the apparent philosophical double-standard being applied to the use of language in this area. You can change your gender but you can't change your sexuality????

Gender transition isn't about "changing your gender." Contrary to popular belief, transgender people have always identified with their gender identity (and this shows up on brain scans). Far from "changing one's gender," the process of transition helps transgender people reduce the dysphoria (intense feelings of discomfort) between their gender identity and biological sex. It brings peoples' external presentation in line with their internal identities.

[Haven]

Yeah, funny how Jesus says to love everyone but then sends many to Hell. That shows His love has some standard!

Yeah, that fundamentalist Jesus sure is a funny (read psychopathic and vile) guy!

[Lion IRC]

There really is so much misinformation out there on trans people.

....makes you wonder when we will ever achieve certainty and clarity on this topic.
So many competing opinions.
So much jargon.
Such equivocation.

Eg. 'Gender' versus 'biological sex'.

[Haven]

....makes you wonder when we will ever achieve certainty and clarity on this topic.
So many competing opinions.
So much jargon.
Such equivocation.

Eg. 'Gender' versus 'biological sex'.

Science has demonstrated that transgender identities aren't just something that people made up. There are structural differences in the brains of transgender people that move them closer to their identified gender. Also, gender is largely a cultural construct (many cultures have genders besides female and male). These data show that sex and gender aren't identical.

When will society understand? Well, it took us this long to get marriage equality, but it happened. I think (hope) the same will eventually happen for trans issues.

[OpenYourEyes]

....makes you wonder when we will ever achieve certainty and clarity on this topic.
So many competing opinions.
So much jargon.
Such equivocation.

Eg. 'Gender' versus 'biological sex'.

Science has demonstrated that transgender identities aren't just something that people made up. There are structural differences in the brains of transgender people that move them closer to their identified gender. Also, gender is largely a cultural construct (many cultures have genders besides female and male). These data show that sex and gender aren't identical.

When will society understand? Well, it took us this long to get marriage equality, but it happened. I think (hope) the same will eventually happen for trans issues.

If you travel outside of the US to places where prostitution is legal, like some parts of Colombia and Brazil, a lot of the transsexual pros dress like women to make money. I doubt you are saying that all transsexuals behave as such for biological reasons, otherwise i'd want a representative sample, including across all socioeconomic class and cross-cultural, to have their brains scanned.

[OpenYourEyes]

I'd have to read on this issue myself because once again there seems to be a problem with replicated studies failing to support the previous or original study. I also wonder about the difference in brain structure, if any, between late onset transgender (those who come out and do sex change late in life) with early onset.

Anyways, here is one study that does not show transexual brains are feminized:

"The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized"

Source:http://m.cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cont ... hr032.full

MtF-TR (male-to-female trans) = A transsexual who was born as a male and transitioned to female.

The British Psychological Society puts it more bluntly:
In referring to the same study i linked to earlier...

"The present study does not support the dogma that male-to-female transsexuals have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences in structural volumes, gray, and white matter fractions," the researchers said. In other words, the male-to-female transsexuals may have felt like women, but their brains had structural characteristics typical of men.

Source: http://digest.bps.org.uk/2011/11/male ... e.html?m=0.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 58 by Lion IRC]

Sorry about that. ESL???? Let me know if I can help in any way.

Moderator Comment

There can be many reasons for miscommunications. Don't presume any of them. Don't refer to others in debate.

Saying ESL ... really this should be a warning ... capiche?

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[otseng]

Moderator Intervention

While this discussion is interesting, it doesn't really belong here. This subforum is for discussion about how the forum should run, not on discussing other subjects.


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Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.