Guns Guns Guns

[Beto]

So where does everyone stand on the "right to bear arms" issue? I'd like to hear the pros and cons. I'm kinda divided right now, between the ideal and the realistic positions.

[realthinker]

Though I explained my gun ownership, I didn't express my views on the legality of guns. I believe that guns in any public place should have trigger lock installed and be unloaded. I don't think I'd mind a law stating that having an unlocked, loaded weapon in public is the intent to commit a felony. I also believe that when one has a firearm and ammunition in transit, the ammunition should be transported in a locked container. I don't think I'd mind a law to that effect. These are rules I abide by personally. Each of my guns has a trigger lock. All ammunition in my home is inside a locked box. I am the only one with the combination to that lock.

[aawhc]

The right to bear arms is fine until it is used to deny the right to life.
Then wouldn't guns be useless? Yes (except in defense of ones own life)

[Beto]

Violent criminality is escalating in Portugal, and people are getting concerned. The police can't be relied upon, on no small measure because of lack of governmental support. I recently saw myself in a situation on a bus with a gang, and if I had a gun, people would've died. Simple as that. On retrospect, suffering some humiliation didn't have much of a toll on me, but I wonder what might've happened were I carrying a piece. I'm very pragmatic about threats to my physical integrity. People seem very willing to engage in physicalities, as if some code was in effect, as to how much damage one can inflict on an person, and I find this interesting. "Dude, you looked at my wife?! I'm gonna kick your ass!" My ideal response would be a pragmatic "BANG!" I mean, why admit to a beating, even if you know you won't get killed? A government and its law enforcement agents cannot protect people from jerks that get satisfaction on attacking weaker individuals, and knowing they cannot defend themselves is all most of them need.

I'm starting to think, that if every adult was presumed armed, a lot less conflict would take place. It's basically seeing everyone as a big dude with a mean disposition. You wouldn't even start a confrontation. It levels the playing field. If technology provides the means for defence without the need to compromise ourselves to a life of martial arts and bodybuilding, should people be deprived of that opportunity?

And when you have people getting killed on driving accidents on a daily basis, there is really no moral ground to object to the right to bear arms based on accidents. Some accidents will happen yes, like they always will. But for every accident, a hundred lethal situations may be averted, simply by not knowing whether or not people are armed when we develop an issue with them. I think that after some time, otherwise violent people would even develop a much greater restraint.

[McCulloch]

Violent criminality is escalating in Portugal, and people are getting concerned.

You have heard it said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Human civilization has developed a better way to maintain civility. It is called the rule of law. We each sacrifice some of our independence to a central authority which we collectively have established. This central authority, acting in our interests, establishes rules of conduct, laws, with remedies and enforcement. When the rule of law is working correctly, civilization flourishes. Each of us is not expending our resources protecting ourselves from each other and are able to focus on more productive tasks. When the rule of law is not working properly, when the central authority is not behaving well, then lawlessness as you describe, emerges. In the short run, arming yourselves may be the best strategy, but in the long run, you must end (OK not end but significantly reduce) corruption in government and increase the perception that laws will be enforced, fairly and equitably. If you truly believe that significant progress cannot be made in that regard in your region, then it is time to leave.

[Goat]

This is a tragedy that shows what an obsession with guns CAN do

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081027/ap_ ... .RUYOs0NUE

[Beto]

You have heard it said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Human civilization has developed a better way to maintain civility. It is called the rule of law. We each sacrifice some of our independence to a central authority which we collectively have established. This central authority, acting in our interests, establishes rules of conduct, laws, with remedies and enforcement. When the rule of law is working correctly, civilization flourishes. Each of us is not expending our resources protecting ourselves from each other and are able to focus on more productive tasks. When the rule of law is not working properly, when the central authority is not behaving well, then lawlessness as you describe, emerges. In the short run, arming yourselves may be the best strategy, but in the long run, you must end (OK not end but significantly reduce) corruption in government and increase the perception that laws will be enforced, fairly and equitably. If you truly believe that significant progress cannot be made in that regard in your region, then it is time to leave.

It should be noted that I'm not condoning the indiscriminate distribution of guns, or allowing for irresponsible gun shows. That is a considerable leap from allowing people to defend themselves when the state of affairs reaches a point that gets everyone on edge. This can be accomplished by loosening the reigns a bit, and facilitating the carrying of firearms for people that demonstrate they are psychologically fit to carry them. Meanwhile, the government can get their heads out of their poopers, and make sure being a policeman is a rewardable profession. There have been appalling interviews of police officers, that are literally crapped on by the state, and we simply cannot be asked to rely on them, as a whole, for our protection. It is in this regard that I feel the state should help people protect themselves, within reason, to a degree compatible with the violence we can all observe in the streets. Mind you, I'm not just talking about guns. Pepper spray and stun guns are also illegal in Portugal, and at this point, banning non-lethal defence weapons is absurd.

[ChristianGuy]

I am a firm believer in Gun control. You should always use both hands

I don't think that it is un-Christian or immoral to have guns. They are a great crime deterrent and I advocate them all the way as long as they are in the right hands. If someone wants to kill someone else, they are not going to care about whether or not having the gun is legal. You can get your hands on just about anything illegal pretty easily. Then when he goes to kill the law-abiding citizen who does not carry a gun, the criminal will be able to do so and escape with ease because the citizen will have no way to protect himself. I think the "eye for an eye" thing is speaking of revenge, not protection.

[McCulloch]

I am a firm believer in Gun control. You should always use both hands

I don't think that it is un-Christian or immoral to have guns.

Do you have anything other than your unsupported opinion? Given Jesus teachings on what to do when someone wishes to commit a crime against you, I'm having a difficult time imagining what a disciple of his would use a gun for.

They are a great crime deterrent and I advocate them all the way as long as they are in the right hands. If someone wants to kill someone else, they are not going to care about whether or not having the gun is legal. You can get your hands on just about anything illegal pretty easily. Then when he goes to kill the law-abiding citizen who does not carry a gun, the criminal will be able to do so and escape with ease because the citizen will have no way to protect himself. I think the "eye for an eye" thing is speaking of revenge, not protection.

So what did Jesus say to do about protecting your possessions? What did Jesus teach (by example) about protecting your own life?

[Fisherking]

Given Jesus teachings on what to do when someone wishes to commit a crime against you, I'm having a difficult time imagining what a disciple of his would use a gun for.

How about defending the life of another?

What did Jesus teach (by example) about protecting your own life?

He teaches us not to worry about our own lives -- even to give our lives to save others. He doesn't teach us it is wrong to defend others, by whatever means neccessary.

[aawhc]

If you do not protect one's own life isn't that a form of suicide? Suicide is a sin.