Suicide

Suzy · Post by **Suzy** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:40 pm

I have excellent health and a long way to go yet before I jump of this mortal coil.
But I am going to finish my own life when or if my life is no longer enjoyable, no longer worth living and when I know it will never get better. For instance chronic pain and knowing it will get worse with no hope of relief from drugs. This can happen at any time in life so I have already thought of it. [Yes, I know Im weird]

I am an atheist so my logic tells me that death itself is O.K. [but not necessarily getting there] I was not here for millions of years before I was born and I was fine with that. It was a breeze!

A point I should mention here is the means used to end it all I will keep that to myself for obvious reasons but it will be painless and 100% successful. [Not jumping under a train because I am a coward and also someone has to clear all the mess up]

So to the point and I would like your views on it. What about our love ones. Some say its selfish to take your own life because of what you do to them. I say its selfish of them if they dont let you go if you are suffering.
Me being me I have already cleared it with my family [all atheists] so I am good to go.

Wissing · Post by **Wissing** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:45 pm

Suzy, you say an atheist has an advantage over a believer because you can escape the suffering.

I don't think that's an advantage. There are people in the world who suffer immensely, but still want to live. Why? Why on earth would you want to go on living if you had no chance of being happy? If you were to suffer endlessly? I don't know, but they're all over the place.

If you ever reach the point of wanting to take your own life, take it somewhere else but the comfort of death. Take it and devote it to somebody who wants to live, but doesn't have the chance. Adopt an orphan. Build a community. Work to improve the world around you. Suffer if you must, but there's work to be done, and we need you.

Suzy · Post by **Suzy** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:36 am

[Replying to post 41 by Wissing]

What a nice reply and what a nice person you are Wissing.
I will give you an honest answer here. I am not as good a person as you.
Yes, I do love my fellow man and I do try to help when I can.
But I am also a coward and pain and no hope of a cure would bring the coward out in me and then I will go.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:47 am

Suzy wrote: [Replying to post 41 by Wissing]

What a nice reply and what a nice person you are Wissing.
I will give you an honest answer here. I am not as good a person as you.
Yes, I do love my fellow man and I do try to help when I can.
But I am also a coward and pain and no hope of a cure would bring the coward out in me and then I will go.

I am not sure if that is the truth. I find that terrible circumstances will bring out amazing resources in people that they don't think they have. Other times, even simple things cause some people to collapse, even if they thought they were strong.

Of course, the best thing is not to be put to the test to begin with.

Suzy · Post by **Suzy** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:47 am

[Replying to post 43 by Goat]

I have every intention of never putting it to the test Goat.
But I will come back to my original point again if thats O.K folks?

If life is not worth living anymore, if I see death as a blessed relief, I am in pain and there is no realistic hope of a cure, only going down hill into more pain and misery, then I will go.
To me this is such a simple thing. My thoughts are not clouded by religious superstition. I have the ability to put aside emotion if the time comes [I hope!] and as a logical thinking atheist the subject of suicide under the circumstances I describe is to me a no brainier!

I was very happy millions of years before I was born so I will be just as happy after my death [said with tongue firmly planted in cheek]

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:37 am

Suzy wrote: [Replying to post 43 by Goat]

I have every intention of never putting it to the test Goat.
But I will come back to my original point again if thats O.K folks?

If life is not worth living anymore, if I see death as a blessed relief, I am in pain and there is no realistic hope of a cure, only going down hill into more pain and misery, then I will go.
To me this is such a simple thing. My thoughts are not clouded by religious superstition. I have the ability to put aside emotion if the time comes [I hope!] and as a logical thinking atheist the subject of suicide under the circumstances I describe is to me a no brainier!

I was very happy millions of years before I was born so I will be just as happy after my death [said with tongue firmly planted in cheek]

And, of course, that is your right too!. It also takes courage to make that choice too. I hope I never have to make that choice.

Me, I want to die at 104, shot to death by a jealous husband.

Wissing · Post by **Wissing** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:59 pm

If a particular worldview says suicide is logical, I would consider that one major reason to find another worldview. Because human understanding is finite, there is some room for argument as to what can be considered "logical". However, at the end of the day, it is possible to have an objectively wrong definition of logic.

If your definition of logic is capable of justifying suicide, I would say that definition is objectively wrong. I don't know for sure that my worldview is objectively right, but it does allow me to make decisions that don't make sense to me. Sometimes decisions don't have to make sense *to me*, as long as they make sense to God. Or, if you prefer, I'll make a non-religious analogy. What makes sense to a child is often objectively illogical. If that child has a parent to keep her alive for 20 years, she might look back with a more complete sense of logic and agree.

Suzy · Post by **Suzy** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:29 pm

Wissing wrote: If a particular worldview says suicide is logical, I would consider that one major reason to find another worldview. Because human understanding is finite, there is some room for argument as to what can be considered "logical". However, at the end of the day, it is possible to have an objectively wrong definition of logic.

If your definition of logic is capable of justifying suicide, I would say that definition is objectively wrong. I don't know for sure that my worldview is objectively right, but it does allow me to make decisions that don't make sense to me. Sometimes decisions don't have to make sense *to me*, as long as they make sense to God. Or, if you prefer, I'll make a non-religious analogy. What makes sense to a child is often objectively illogical. If that child has a parent to keep her alive for 20 years, she might look back with a more complete sense of logic and agree.

Believing in God is illogical and you cant expect a child to be logical until they grow and mature into a logical thinking adult so your argument there is illogical.
And if you are able to make illogical decisions based on an illogical belief in the supernatural then you are illogical too. Its all perfectly logical to me.

Wissing · Post by **Wissing** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:02 pm

There are those who struggle to survive, and there are those who struggle to find a reason to.

My argument is based on the premise that survival is objective (either you are dead or you aren't, period). In order for humans and societies to survive, one very important prerequisite is that individuals do not commit suicide. Logic is not the fundamental question here. Logic is a survival tool. When that survival tool fails to serve its purpose, it is being used in a way that is objectively wrong. My argument does not accept the following as true, or even relevant:

Premise: Believing in God is illogical.
Premise: One can't expect a child to be logical.
Premise: One can expect a mature adult to be logical.

And the following are some premises that you've relied upon, which I hold relevant but also untrue:

Premise: Happiness is a necessity.
Premise: Suffering must be avoided.

And your conclusion, restated, is that it is better to take one's own life than to endure unmitigated suffering.

Suzy, I just don't want you to get stuck in a software loop that results in a hardware malfunction. I think you're focusing too much on the validity of your arguments, and not enough on their soundness. The conclusion is irrelevant if the premises aren't agreed upon. There are many who don't agree with your premises. And if you're anything like the majority of animals in history, you've got a survival instinct that says death is worse than pain. I've done plenty of overthinking in my life, and it does little to no good.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:57 pm

If I may interject a philosophical aspects presented by our modern medicated society. I am blessed(cursed) with high pain tolerance, so it would take a lot for me to pack it in. However, a large portion of our society is playing medication roulette. We isolate and concentrate more and more substances that cause specific reaction in the human body or we perform surgical procedures to treat more and more sicknesses. These have side effects, but we just take more isolated, concentrated substances and surgeries to counter them. Then when we find ourselves financially and physical drained by these things, we bemoan the fact that some supergerm, immunodeficiency or financial disaster overtakes us. So, the question becomes, is it suicide to accept that death comes and quality of life is more important than quantity, and by quality I mean a simple generally uneventful life? Is it immoral to reject an overstimulated life in a repeatedly redesigned body?

Suzy · Post by **Suzy** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:17 pm

Wissing wrote: There are those who struggle to survive, and there are those who struggle to find a reason to.

My argument is based on the premise that survival is objective (either you are dead or you aren't, period). In order for humans and societies to survive, one very important prerequisite is that individuals do not commit suicide. Logic is not the fundamental question here. Logic is a survival tool. When that survival tool fails to serve its purpose, it is being used in a way that is objectively wrong. My argument does not accept the following as true, or even relevant:

Premise: Believing in God is illogical.
Premise: One can't expect a child to be logical.
Premise: One can expect a mature adult to be logical.

And the following are some premises that you've relied upon, which I hold relevant but also untrue:

Premise: Happiness is a necessity.
Premise: Suffering must be avoided.

And your conclusion, restated, is that it is better to take one's own life than to endure unmitigated suffering.

Suzy, I just don't want you to get stuck in a software loop that results in a hardware malfunction. I think you're focusing too much on the validity of your arguments, and not enough on their soundness. The conclusion is irrelevant if the premises aren't agreed upon. There are many who don't agree with your premises. And if you're anything like the majority of animals in history, you've got a survival instinct that says death is worse than pain. I've done plenty of overthinking in my life, and it does little to no good.

I am focusing on the validity of my arguments because these are my beliefs, i.e. Believing in God is illogical to me for reasons that are hammered to death on this forum and dont need me to go over them all again.
Can a child think truly logically within the meaning of thinking logically as an adult? Meet my four year old and ask him if religion is based on logic and then stand back and see what happens. He will look blankly at you and then ask if he can see Tom & Jerry on the T.V.!
Adults can choose to think logically if they want to [many dont]
And is happiness necessary you ask. Yep, it is for this girl.

Must suffering be avoided you ask? Back to the crutch of the argument. If suffering is making my life not worth living then life is not worth living..... for me.
So Wissing, I would say my arguments are [for me] valid.

And you bring up the very good point of the survival instinct stopping me from taking my own life if the time should come when I decide to do so. The only answer I can give now is I will let you know how it goes at the time'

No, I am not over thinking I am thinking logically.