Is having sex with an animal a crime or even wrong?

[jeager106]

I read recently a 20 year old woman had been having sex with her dog since age 13.
She made selfie and Fido video and showed her boyfriend who was shocked and turned her into cops & she was charged with beastiality, later amended to
a crime against nature.

An odd charge in light of global warming, pollution, rising ocean levels and no one is charged with a criminal offense of a crime against nature.

Should she be criminally prosecuted & is this a crime in your opinion?
No one has commented on Fido's response, or if Fido was in fact willing.
Does Fido need psychological counseling or simply shot in the head as has been the practice for centuries?
Kidding aside tho is this an issue of morality or sexual preference?
Is it a moral AND criminal issue or a morality issue only?
Should the boyfriend feel his g-friend cheated on him? (moral & emotional response?)
Should the b-friend have gone to the cops?
What is a crime against nature? Should the woman be charged criminally with anything?
There are a lot of really keen minds here & I respect them so.
I value those opinions.

If you must have documentation there are many on line articles.
Here's is but one.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/2 ... 12694.html

[Beans]

[Replying to post 40 by Divine Insight]

Well, I understood this last post much better. I applaud you looking at it in terms of a paradigm. And you are absolutely right that there is a prevailing paradigm to it. In fact an extremely tinted one with no real difference between Muslim or Christian in terms of extremism. And yes, it threatens the peace and security of mankind. in fact I see it as insanity. It is that bad.

I also admit that the vast majority of our Bibles have some important mistranslations in them. But I also know how all that came to be. And while Platonic philosophy through Philo is what place the strongest fuel for division into the religion of the Jews just in time to operate as a strong corrupting force on the church, corruption has been occurring since shortly after Israel was formed as a nation. based upon a distorted understanding of a certain verse in Deuteronomy, the Rabbinical belief quickly became that God had left interpretation of the scriptures up to them. From there they developed the Oral Traditions which were just opinions of what the law really meant. Today those Oral Traditions are in writing in I believe it is three different Jewish books. i would have to dig my notes out to remember the names of those books. However, I got that information straight from the mouth of a modern Jewish Pharisee or ex-Pharisee now as he ceased being one after he learned this through discussion with certain of their Rabbis. His name is Nathaniel Gordon. type that name into youtube and you'll find his videos.

That should make you wonder why I am a stronger believer now than ever. Simply put, because I dug through the garbage and found that the Bible itself when depended upon alone presents a completely different picture, a different paradigm.

For one thing, just as you are all for addressing that girl's situation from an education point of view, that is the real theme of the Bible. All of the twisting and contorting of the scriptures by the many who have been too smart too quick has covered that over with fantastical ideas of miraculous transformation.

The point of Jesus among other things is that he was the one who did understand the knowledge of God and therefore was equipped to share that knowledge for the development of a higher level of wisdom to man. but of course you know how many Christians will rip me for telling you this. Especially if I shared with you how the holy spirit really works according to the scriptures.

As to the girl's case being approached from the standpoint of education, there is provision for that in our legal system and they cannot charge a crime to anyone who does not understand that what they are doing is wrong. So it immediately would turn to educational intervention.

I don't expect you to know all these things and that is OK. Many people don't. There needs to be more public education even as to how our law works. The only reason i understand is because one of the four field i studied since high school was the federal rules of evidence and criminal procedural law.

you are absolutely right that the girl in question should be approached from that standpoint.

[Divine Insight]

The point of Jesus among other things is that he was the one who did understand the knowledge of God and therefore was equipped to share that knowledge for the development of a higher level of wisdom to man. but of course you know how many Christians will rip me for telling you this. Especially if I shared with you how the holy spirit really works according to the scriptures.

I fully understand where you are coming from. Ironically it is for precisely this very reason that I have tossed in the towel on the religion.

You say, "The point of Jesus was,.... blah blah blah".

But what you fail to realize that in doing this you "Become Jesus". You have just created your own Jesus based on what you would personally like for Jesus to be.

I could play that game too. But the problem is that in order to do that you need to scrap a lot of the scriptures yourself and pick and choose what YOU would like to be true.

You say:

I also admit that the vast majority of our Bibles have some important mistranslations in them. But I also know how all that came to be.

And so now everyone needs to turn to YOU to get the correct translations and interpretations because according to YOU the actual Bibles can no longer be trusted to contain the TRUTH.

I'm sure that you are no alone in this mindset. There are many Christians who believe this way. Unfortunate even they don't agree with each other one which parts of scriptures to trash and which parts are meaningful.

The problem with this is that Jesus and God would have failed the masses by allowing the "WORD" to become corrupt.

It's not going to fly in terms of anything convincing, IMHO.

I can proclaim that my view represent the "Real Jesus" too. But who's going to buy that one?

Moreover, if that's they way you truly feel you too should be renouncing "Christianity" as a religion in general.

Join the club. Christians who renounce Christianity!

That's me!

[Beans]

The point of Jesus among other things is that he was the one who did understand the knowledge of God and therefore was equipped to share that knowledge for the development of a higher level of wisdom to man. but of course you know how many Christians will rip me for telling you this. Especially if I shared with you how the holy spirit really works according to the scriptures.

I fully understand where you are coming from. Ironically it is for precisely this very reason that I have tossed in the towel on the religion.

You say, "The point of Jesus was,.... blah blah blah".

But what you fail to realize that in doing this you "Become Jesus". You have just created your own Jesus based on what you would personally like for Jesus to be.

I could play that game too. But the problem is that in order to do that you need to scrap a lot of the scriptures yourself and pick and choose what YOU would like to be true.

You say:

I also admit that the vast majority of our Bibles have some important mistranslations in them. But I also know how all that came to be.

And so now everyone needs to turn to YOU to get the correct translations and interpretations because according to YOU the actual Bibles can no longer be trusted to contain the TRUTH.

I'm sure that you are no alone in this mindset. There are many Christians who believe this way. Unfortunate even they don't agree with each other one which parts of scriptures to trash and which parts are meaningful.

The problem with this is that Jesus and God would have failed the masses by allowing the "WORD" to become corrupt.

It's not going to fly in terms of anything convincing, IMHO.

I can proclaim that my view represent the "Real Jesus" too. But who's going to buy that one?

Moreover, if that's they way you truly feel you too should be renouncing "Christianity" as a religion in general.

Join the club. Christians who renounce Christianity!

That's me!

If you believe that is an honest assessment that tells me you either do not understand the things you yourself bring upon the table or that you only bring them on the table as a ploy to manipulate an area of attack.

Good day sir. You are on my block list from here forward.

[Divine Insight]

If you believe that is an honest assessment that tells me you either do not understand the things you yourself bring upon the table or that you only bring them on the table as a ploy to manipulate an area of attack.

Good day sir. You are on my block list from here forward.

That's a shame. I was just going to suggest that we actually move our discussion to a more respectable thread. In fact, I was actually starting that thread, which I may do anyway.

Your conclusion that I'm out to "attack" anything is a false assumption on your behalf. I have simply recognized that it make no sense to hold Jesus up as the Son of God of the Old Testament in any context. And I am willing to discuss that issue with you or anyone else further. But not in this thread.

This thread is a lynch mob thread.

[Beans]

If you believe that is an honest assessment that tells me you either do not understand the things you yourself bring upon the table or that you only bring them on the table as a ploy to manipulate an area of attack.

Good day sir. You are on my block list from here forward.

That's a shame. I was just going to suggest that we actually move our discussion to a more respectable thread. In fact, I was actually starting that thread, which I may do anyway.

Your conclusion that I'm out to "attack" anything is a false assumption on your behalf. I have simply recognized that it make no sense to hold Jesus up as the Son of God of the Old Testament in any context. And I am willing to discuss that issue with you or anyone else further. But not in this thread.

This thread is a lynch mob thread.

I accept what you are saying there, it is just that I do not see any point in debating with someone who can one minute recognize that a paradigm is behind such problems and then appears to be unwilling to do a bit of paradigm shifting for the sake of looking to see if there is better paradigm, one that actually makes better sense.

My last comment is based on the fact that you do not seem to me to really be looking for a solution other than to do away with the Bible and Jesus and anything related to it. That to me is imbalanced and wreaks of a closed mind.

Describe for me what you consider a better solution, one that takes into account the fact that anytime we simply allow everyone to do as seems good to themselves there always ends up being a greater clash of conflicting ideas and warring as a result.

Look at our governments and the wars which break out right within their controlling bodies like the U.S. Senate and House (Congress). Look at all of the division and the warring we find there to the point that the people's interests end up sacrificed to their bickering and having to barter to get anything done. And that is not only happening in the U.S. Congress but we see it in many of the nation's governments in this earth.

You tell me what the better way is that you have. Because if you really do have a better way, then I can understand that you are being reasonable to claim not to need to find out if the Bible actually offers a better paradigm than the one we see.

[Divine Insight]

I accept what you are saying there, it is just that I do not see any point in debating with someone who can one minute recognize that a paradigm is behind such problems and then appears to be unwilling to do a bit of paradigm shifting for the sake of looking to see if there is better paradigm, one that actually makes better sense.

The key phrase to focus on here is "Appears to be Unwilling". That is a perception on your part that makes assumptions about someone you really don't know at all. It's not that I am unwilling to consider "better paradigms", on the contrary I've been doing that my entire life. It's just that over many decades of hearing proposed "better paradigms" I've come to realize that none of them can be made to hold water.

I might add also that I'm pretty inventive and imaginative myself. I've tried coming up with better paradigms myself. I've found it to be impossible in light of the written scriptures. In short, I see no other choice but to conclude that the Bible (as written) cannot be salvaged or made into a rational paradigm on any level.

My last comment is based on the fact that you do not seem to me to really be looking for a solution other than to do away with the Bible and Jesus and anything related to it. That to me is imbalanced and wreaks of a closed mind.

It is my confident conclusion after having considered the Biblical problem for many decades that there is no viable solution to be had. It's simply not possible to justify of defend the biblical stories in any seriously rational or honest way.

You suggest that this reeks of a closed mind. But I tell you that from my perspective it's the only honest conclusion possible.

Describe for me what you consider a better solution, one that takes into account the fact that anytime we simply allow everyone to do as seems good to themselves there always ends up being a greater clash of conflicting ideas and warring as a result.

A better solution to what?

Now you have changed the issue entirely. Now, instead of being concerned with how we might justify Jesus being the demigod Son of Yahweh, (which is paramount to saving the Biblical paradigm) you are now addressing what you believe to be some "solution" to problems.

What do you think the solution is?

There are many sages and philosophers throughout all of history, both before and after Jesus who have suggested behaviors that if everyone followed there would b no problems in this world.

Heck, if everyone were like me there would be no problems in this word. So much for Jesus having any unique grasp on that concept.

Look at our governments and the wars which break out right within their controlling bodies like the U.S. Senate and House (Congress). Look at all of the division and the warring we find there to the point that the people's interests end up sacrificed to their bickering and having to barter to get anything done. And that is not only happening in the U.S. Congress but we see it in many of the nation's governments in this earth.

So what?

Look at Christianity and all the bickering disagreeing denominations. How is that any different from Congress? Christians hate each other in Jesus' name. If Christianity were the only religion in the world there would still be extreme arguments and debates over who the "True Christians" really are.

It's extremely naive to think that Christianity has a solution to anything.

You tell me what the better way is that you have. Because if you really do have a better way, then I can understand that you are being reasonable to claim not to need to find out if the Bible actually offers a better paradigm than the one we see.

A better way to what?

If everyone would simply behave themselves to the same moral standards I do this world would be heaven. Well at least as far as human behavior is concerned. We'd still have disease, natural disasters and animals that bite (like mosquitoes etc). But at least people would be extremely nice to each other and we would have a very constructive productive world that is very concerned with keeping a clean environment.

In fact, if everyone were like me we wouldn't have the overpopulation problem that plagues our planet. We wouldn't have police, we wouldn't have lawyers, and our Congress wouldn't be a collection of idiots.

Schools would be based on cooperation instead of competition.
Careers would also be based on cooperation instead of competition.

The world would be a great place to live (save for the disease, natural disasters, and mosquitoes, etc.)

We don't need Jesus. Just be like me and you'll be all set.

We shouldn't need a 2000 year old demigod as a model of how to live.

In fact, ask yourself. Do you really need that model?

Because if you do then you are basically saying that you are not innately like that anyway. So what is your incentive to follow it then? The promise of an eternal life? The threat of eternal punishment if you don't?

The "Jesus Model" is actually based upon supernatural threats and rewards.

It's basically a threat proclaiming that you must do as you are told or else.

Clearly it's not working.

By the way, you complain about the sad state of the US Congress, but they are overwhelmingly Christians already!

We'd probably be far better off if our Congress was made up of Secular Scientists. They would probably behave far better than these Christians who currently run our government and bicker with each other like they do in their disagreeing denominations.

~~~~

In the end the point isn't to ask "Would following the teaching of Jesus produce a good life?"

That's is not the question.

The real question is this: "Does it make sense that Jesus was the demigod Son of the God described in the Old Testament?".

If the answer to that question is "No", then it doesn't matter if Jesus taught the best possible way to live it still wouldn't make him GOD. It would also make his promises of everlasting life and everlasting punishment absurd.

You can't support the idea that Jesus speaks for God simply be suggesting that he taught things that seem to have the potential of leading to a peaceful life. There have been many sages and philosophers who have taught things that would lead to a peaceful productive life.

Bill Gates, and the Gates Foundation strive to help people to live good peaceful and productive lives. And Bill Gates is an atheist.

So Jesus doesn't hold the patent rights to living a good peaceful and productive life anyway.

[Beans]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

You make some valid points.

The real question is this: "Does it make sense that Jesus was the demigod Son of the God described in the Old Testament?".

There is at least one Christian group who I have been noticing that do not believe Jesus to be, "the demigod Son of the God described in the Old Testament."

Further, unlike any other group of people, whether of those who believe in God or of those who do not, this one group of believers I am noticing are the only group who exists word-wide that you never have to worry about engaging in war with, for they are a proven peaceable people. There are 193 countries and some 60 territories, and they exist peacefully in all but for 26 territories which prevent them. They do not participate in military service in any land they are in and thus they do not contribute to the famine, disease, and destruction left in wars wake. that in my eyes makes them the only people capable of proving by real evidence that their way works.

Wouldn't you agree that any real solution must begin with an end to war? Well, they have succeeded to end war for themselves as well as proving to be no threat to anyone else. And they rely on the Bible as their guide for doing that.

It is kind of a put up or shut up situation we have here as to all who claim they desire a better way or claim to have a better way, either one. Why is it that one successful group of believers in God is so resisted by almost everyone outside of their organization when not one single one outside of them can point to proof of a better way than theirs?

Have you not noticed Jehovah's Witness stand out as different in that way and that they exist in 237 countries and territories of this earth? And they are an asset to all by virtue of their peaceful faith.

Can you or anyone you know furnish that kind of powerful proof that you or anyone else has something better to offer?

[Divine Insight]

It is kind of a put up or shut up situation we have here as to all who claim they desire a better way or claim to have a better way, either one. Why is it that one successful group of believers in God is so resisted by almost everyone outside of their organization when not one single one outside of them can point to proof of a better way than theirs?

Of all the religions in the world Jainism has to be given the award for peaceful living. You don't Jesus to live peacefully.

And also just because someone does live peaceful in the name of Jesus doesn't mean anything. There are many people who live peacefully for many other reasons.

Have you not noticed Jehovah's Witness stand out as different in that way and that they exist in 237 countries and territories of this earth? And they are an asset to all by virtue of their peaceful faith.

There are many peaceful atheists. Does this mean that we should all become atheists?

Can you or anyone you know furnish that kind of powerful proof that you or their way works?

That wasn't the original issue that I brought up. The original issue I brought up was whether or not it can be justified to claim that Jesus was the demigod Son of the God of the Old Testament.

As far as I'm concerned many of the good things that Jesus taught are nothing more than common sense. You don't need Jesus. All you need is a brain.

Besides, what do you attribute to Jesus that isn't common sense?

What kind of good behaviors would you attribute to Jesus that an atheist like Sam Harris wouldn't agree with?

Sam Harris acknowledges that many of the moral values associated with Jesus are good. That doesn't justify the entity of the rest of the dogma.

And apparently you are still in denial of the jot and tittle thing.

Are we going to pretend that we can just dismiss anything attributed to Jesus that we don't agree with?

Like I say, as soon as we do that we BECOME "Jesus".

If I get to lay claim to which things I think Jesus supports and which things I think Jesus would not support then I BECOME Jesus.

I become the voice of Jesus. I claim to know what Jesus supported and what he didn't support. And therefore I end up pushing my moral values onto Jesus.

It cannot be made to work without proclaiming that YOU speak for Jesus and you reject anything that you think Jesus wouldn't support.

And then YOUR opinions become the moral standard "In Jesus' Name"

I could be on here as a Christian arguing that Jesus supports my moral value too.

I don't bother doing that because I know full well that it would be pretentious and dishonest.

The reason I reject Christianity (and the divinity of Jesus) is precisely because I refuse to be pretentious and dishonest.

Also, those people you quote who live peaceful lives and refuse to go to war, etc, may very well be living pretentious and dishonest lives too. A person can be bother peaceful and dishonest.

I prefer to be peaceful and honest.

So just based on that alone I would suggest that my way is better because my way does not require any dishonesty.

Why live a life of pretense when instead we can live a life of honesty?

[Beans]

[Replying to post 48 by Divine Insight]


Jainism are actually less in number in the world than are Jehovah's Witnesses.

Besides that Jainism exists in only a small number of places in the world compared to Jehovah's Witness who have a presence in all but 27 small territories of the world.

And last of all members of Jainism do participate in the military of any nation they are in where as Jehovah's Witnesses do not do military service at all.

Jainism's service in the military makes them a party to the evils of war and anybody with any sense knows what those evils are for many innocent people. That sort of undermines their claim of being a peaceful people.

Try to see the whole picture instead of the little piece that suites a special need.

[Divine Insight]

Try to see the whole picture instead of the little piece that suites a special need.

There are many peaceful people in the world. I'm a peaceful person myself but I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, nor do I even believe that Jesus had anything to do with any God.

Pointing to Jehovah's witnesses is meaningless. You may as well point to me.

A desire to live in a peaceful world has nothing at all to do with Jesus.

The Buddhists preach peace as well.

Even the Muslims claim that Islam is a peaceful religion.