This topic is related to another topic that questions why God would make rules that subjugate women. I can accept that there are rules in the Bible that subjugate women. What I don't agree with are the views and that says that all rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are wrong. I question these views because there are some patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women.
When I've had this conversation in the past, I tend to find a lot of assumptions of how patriarchy should be (as if there's only one way to lead - the dictator way?) or I find a lot of double-standards. So let's debate!
Is patriarchy inherently wrong (meaning any or all forms are wrong)?
Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Moderator: Moderators
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #1- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #2.
So, what are some of the patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women? And what rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are right? ..Sexist egotistical lying hypocritical bigots would like to know.
.
So, what are some of the patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women? And what rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are right? ..Sexist egotistical lying hypocritical bigots would like to know.
.
Last edited by Miles on Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #31. Men taking the lead role in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
2. Men taking the lead role when it comes to providing, especially when there are kids involved.
*Keep in mind, that I'm not arguing that the man should do these things. My point is that it is a good option for those that choose to live with that arrangement.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #4Not roles but "standards" and "rules." In any case, we have:AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:48 pm1. Men taking the lead role in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
Lori Robinson, commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) and United States Northern Command (NORTHCOM) is a retired four star general. Laura J. Richardson, (Commander, U.S. Southern Command) and Jacqueline D. Van Ovost (Commander, U.S. Transportation Command ) are also four star generals; while Lisa M. Franchetti (Vice Chief of Naval Operations ) and Linda L. Fagan (Commandant of the Coast Guard) are admirals. Seems there are a lot of leading roles women can take in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
And what of those women who would choose to live with that arrangement? Shouldn't they be afforded the option?Keep in mind, that I'm not arguing that the man should do these things. My point is that it is a good option for those that choose to live with that arrangement.
.
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #5I wouldn't talk about rules or standards as if one person is prescribing them. My arguments rests on a consensual form of patriarchy where a couple chooses to follow traditional gender roles.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pmNot roles but "standards" and "rules."AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:48 pm 1. Men taking the lead role in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
I'll scale back my example because your example is too broad for my point to work unless we get into hypotheticals. An obvious problem is if a woman wanted these positions of leadership, and men kept them from getting it, then that would be suppression. A more realistic scenario is a couple deciding that the man should take the lead in protecting the family. If patriarchy was inherently wrong, then there would be no scenario where gender-based leadership would be good.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pmIn any case, we have:
Lori Robinson, commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) and United States Northern Command (NORTHCOM) is a retired four star general. Laura J. Richardson, (Commander, U.S. Southern Command) and Jacqueline D. Van Ovost (Commander, U.S. Transportation Command ) are also four star generals; while Lisa M. Franchetti (Vice Chief of Naval Operations ) and Linda L. Fagan (Commandant of the Coast Guard) are admirals. Seems there are a lot of leading roles women can take in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
Did you mean to say chooses not to live under that arrangement? Then she doesn't have to. She can decide to live out other more egalitarian options just as long as it causes no harm. I would presume that those who would say it is wrong under any circumstance (i.e to let the man take the lead) are assuming that patriarchy can't coexist with consent.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pmAnd what of those women who would choose to live with that arrangement? Shouldn't they be afforded the option?AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:48 pmKeep in mind, that I'm not arguing that the man should do these things. My point is that it is a good option for those that choose to live with that arrangement.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #6Here's another scenario:
- If a couple is out on a date and is confronted by a person who is trying to rob them, traditional gender roles would have the man protecting his girlfriend.
Does this standard harm women?
- If a couple is out on a date and is confronted by a person who is trying to rob them, traditional gender roles would have the man protecting his girlfriend.
Does this standard harm women?
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #7But I didn't ask about roles but the standards and rules you mentioned.AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:39 pmI wouldn't talk about rules or standards as if one person is prescribing them. My arguments rests on a consensual form of patriarchy where a couple chooses to follow traditional gender roles.Miles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pmNot roles, but "standards" and "rules."AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:48 pm 1. Men taking the lead role in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
"I question these views because there are some patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women."
"What I don't agree with are the views and that says that all rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are wrong."
"What I don't agree with are the views and that says that all rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are wrong."
Q 1: What are some of the patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women?
Q 2: What rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are right
NOTE: The balance of our discussion is getting just too messy to continue.
.
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #8I can keep that in mind. One change I was considering making was using the terms "traditional gender roles" in place of the word "patriarchy". I figured the two concepts were the same which is why I've used them interchangeably.
Did you read my post #6 which has clearest point here on standards?
I was trying to explain that a "standard" and "role" are not mutually exclusive. It can be a standard for the man to play the head role. The Bible makes it a "rule" for the husband to play the head role (e.g. where it says wives submit to husbands).Miles wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:17 pm But I didn't ask about roles but the standards and rules you mentioned.
"I question these views because there are some patriarchal standards that are good or that don't cause harm and/or the suppression of women."
"What I don't agree with are the views and that says that all rules involving men being over women (or taking a lead role) are wrong."
Let me know if you need anything clarified or simplified as I'm really interested in seeing an argument that shows that any or all forms of patriarchy are harmful to women.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- AgnosticBoy
- Guru
- Posts: 1620
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
- Has thanked: 204 times
- Been thanked: 156 times
- Contact:
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #9Taking a second shot at this...Miles wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:17 pmNot roles but "standards" and "rules." In any case, we have:AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:48 pm 1. Men taking the lead role in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
Lori Robinson, commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) and United States Northern Command (NORTHCOM) is a retired four star general. Laura J. Richardson, (Commander, U.S. Southern Command) and Jacqueline D. Van Ovost (Commander, U.S. Transportation Command ) are also four star generals; while Lisa M. Franchetti (Vice Chief of Naval Operations ) and Linda L. Fagan (Commandant of the Coast Guard) are admirals. Seems there are a lot of leading roles women can take in protecting (security, warfare, etc).
I don't dispute that women can be leaders, but it would be relevant to the topic to also show that it would be harmful if only men held those positions. Take the more isolated example that I offered regarding a bad guy trying to rob a couple. Sure, you can say that the woman can fight off the bad guy, but the question is if it would be harmful to women if the man did the fighting for them.
*I presume that the man doing the fighting or protecting was a patriarchal standard or a traditional gender role.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 386
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:45 am
- Has thanked: 5 times
- Been thanked: 12 times
Re: Is patriarchy inherently wrong?
Post #10[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #1]
In the introduction of a book I recenty read and recommend for everyone to read (King Warrior Magician Lover by Moore, Robert L.) I found this main idea of the fact that patriarchy is nothing but immature masculinity.
you can borrow the book here and see where it spoke about patriarchy
https://archive.org/details/kingwarrior ... PATRIARCHY
Feminism took this concept of patriarchy to attack masculinity as a whole and the book showed how both attacking masculinity and patriarchy are wrong.
Understanding mature masculinity and applying the ideal form of it, will not result in patriarchy on the other hand putting actions under patriarchy just to attack those actions is something we need to consider.
So we need first to understand what you mean by patriarchy in order to say whether it's right or wrong also we need to know according to what we will say it's right or wrong.
In the introduction of a book I recenty read and recommend for everyone to read (King Warrior Magician Lover by Moore, Robert L.) I found this main idea of the fact that patriarchy is nothing but immature masculinity.
you can borrow the book here and see where it spoke about patriarchy
https://archive.org/details/kingwarrior ... PATRIARCHY
Feminism took this concept of patriarchy to attack masculinity as a whole and the book showed how both attacking masculinity and patriarchy are wrong.
Understanding mature masculinity and applying the ideal form of it, will not result in patriarchy on the other hand putting actions under patriarchy just to attack those actions is something we need to consider.
So we need first to understand what you mean by patriarchy in order to say whether it's right or wrong also we need to know according to what we will say it's right or wrong.