Fine tuning of the Universe

Mr.Badham · Post by **Mr.Badham** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:43 pm

I'm confused, because it seems like the argument could go both ways.

Either the universe is fine tuned for life, and therefore is full of it, or only Earth is fine tuned for life, and the rest of the universe will have none of it.

I want theists to take a stand right here and say;

The universe is fine tuned, and is full of life.

Or

The Earth is fine tuned, the rest of the universe has none of it.

Then I want you to stake your religiosity on it. If you make the claim, one way or the other, and are shown to be wrong, you will then become an atheist.

If you are not willing to do this, I would like you to proclaim that the argument is bogus, and should never be used.

You have 1 of 3 options;
The universe is full of life.
Only earth has life.
The fine tuning argument is bogus and should never be used.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:51 am

If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:57 pm

McCulloch wrote: If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.

Yet you can't have it both ways either.

If the occurence of life is not special but part of the universe, like gravity, it should be everywhere as well.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:00 pm

[Replying to post 10 by Box Whatbox]

What was the electro magnetism argument?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:16 am

Wootah wrote:
McCulloch wrote:If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.
Yet you can't have it both ways either.

If the occurence of life is not special but part of the universe, like gravity, it should be everywhere as well.

Not at all. Rare things are to be expected in an unplanned universe. The universe was not designed for life, but neither is it that common.[/quote]

Box Whatbox · Post by **Box Whatbox** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:23 pm

[Replying to post 13 by Wootah]
Sorry, mate. That was a bit of a throwaway. I have seen adverts in old magazines that claimed electric or magnetic fields could do all sorts of wonders. ( Hypnotism, for example, was originally called magnetism in some circles!)
The forefront of science is always the 'unknown', inevitably. The merchants of woo love to play in such fields. (Cf the film 'What the bleep do we know'. and other such.)
If society at large ever learns to regard quantum physics as uncontroversial, the same woo merchants, or their heirs, will latch onto whatever the science has more recently uncovered, but has not yet explained.
It's a very old game, and rather sweet, in its way.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:17 pm

[Replying to post 14 by McCulloch]

So why can't I claim that life is observe here but possible elsewhere but probably not existing elsewhere?

It's like demanding a painter can't use red paint unless the whole picture is painted red.

Excubis · Post by **Excubis** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:55 pm

Mr.Badham wrote: I'm confused, because it seems like the argument could go both ways.

Either the universe is fine tuned for life, and therefore is full of it, or only Earth is fine tuned for life, and the rest of the universe will have none of it.

I want theists to take a stand right here and say;

The universe is fine tuned, and is full of life.

Or

The Earth is fine tuned, the rest of the universe has none of it.

Then I want you to stake your religiosity on it. If you make the claim, one way or the other, and are shown to be wrong, you will then become an atheist.

If you are not willing to do this, I would like you to proclaim that the argument is bogus, and should never be used.

You have 1 of 3 options;
The universe is full of life.
Only earth has life.
The fine tuning argument is bogus and should never be used.

Well first off fine tuning implies an outside influence and I don't believe this so that I won't even touch, but will say things happen cause they can in every experiment across scientific fields shows no outside influence, put proper things together and they just happen because they can.

I say life is abundant across the universe since the discovery of the elements of all life on earth are found in space. You can actually do this at home take sterile water with no cells present in it, add carbon and nitrogen and a organic film will develop guaranteed. Most creationist don't accept this as creating life but first you have to accept life is created in the first place. Yes this organic compound is not new to Earth but does show that if certain elements are present rudimentary life occurs. This slime is like to algae oh and yes it needs sun or a source of phosphorus or sulfur for the organic material to feed on.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:17 am

Wootah wrote: It's like demanding a painter can't use red paint unless the whole picture is painted red.

That's the point - If a painting is said to be "fined tuned for red," then the expectation that the picture is predominantly red is perfectly understandable, no? Conversely if a painting is mostly black with a speck of red, one wouldn't suggest that the painting is fine tuned for red.

Box Whatbox · Post by **Box Whatbox** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:06 pm

[Replying to post 18 by Bust Nak]

If a uranium mine, with a refinery on top of it turns out a million tons of rock and a couple of kilos of plutonium, would that indicate that the whole shebang wasn't fine-tuned to produce plutonium?

Mr.Badham · Post by **Mr.Badham** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:17 pm

[Replying to Box Whatbox]

Right, the mine is fine tuned to produce plutonium, and someone staked their life savings on it. Someone said, "Yes, I believe this mine will pay off. If it produces none or too little, I'm done. I won't believe in this mine anymore."
I personally don't care either way if they're right.
Fine tuning is not my argument. It confuses me.

What I want is a declaration. Are you willing to stake a claim? Pick one, and stake your religiosity on it.

Fine tuning pertains to;
Earth only.
The entire Universe.

Debating Christianity and Religion

Fine tuning of the Universe

Fine tuning of the Universe

Re: Fine tuning of the Universe