I'm confused, because it seems like the argument could go both ways.
Either the universe is fine tuned for life, and therefore is full of it, or only Earth is fine tuned for life, and the rest of the universe will have none of it.
I want theists to take a stand right here and say;
The universe is fine tuned, and is full of life.
Or
The Earth is fine tuned, the rest of the universe has none of it.
Then I want you to stake your religiosity on it. If you make the claim, one way or the other, and are shown to be wrong, you will then become an atheist.
If you are not willing to do this, I would like you to proclaim that the argument is bogus, and should never be used.
You have 1 of 3 options;
The universe is full of life.
Only earth has life.
The fine tuning argument is bogus and should never be used.
Fine tuning of the Universe
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- McCulloch
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Post #11
If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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The truth will make you free.
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Post #12
Yet you can't have it both ways either.McCulloch wrote: If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.
If the occurence of life is not special but part of the universe, like gravity, it should be everywhere as well.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Post #13
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
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Post #14
Not at all. Rare things are to be expected in an unplanned universe. The universe was not designed for life, but neither is it that common.[/quote]Wootah wrote:Yet you can't have it both ways either.McCulloch wrote:If I were a wheat farmer with a farm the size of Eurasia under cultivation and after sixty years of farming produced one single spear of wheat, you would not call me a successful agriculturist. Yet the creationists have the audacity to claim that the creator of the universe fine tuned it for the purpose of supporting life.
If the occurence of life is not special but part of the universe, like gravity, it should be everywhere as well.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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Post #15
[Replying to post 13 by Wootah]
Sorry, mate. That was a bit of a throwaway. I have seen adverts in old magazines that claimed electric or magnetic fields could do all sorts of wonders. ( Hypnotism, for example, was originally called magnetism in some circles!)
The forefront of science is always the 'unknown', inevitably. The merchants of woo love to play in such fields. (Cf the film 'What the bleep do we know'. and other such.)
If society at large ever learns to regard quantum physics as uncontroversial, the same woo merchants, or their heirs, will latch onto whatever the science has more recently uncovered, but has not yet explained.
It's a very old game, and rather sweet, in its way.
Sorry, mate. That was a bit of a throwaway. I have seen adverts in old magazines that claimed electric or magnetic fields could do all sorts of wonders. ( Hypnotism, for example, was originally called magnetism in some circles!)
The forefront of science is always the 'unknown', inevitably. The merchants of woo love to play in such fields. (Cf the film 'What the bleep do we know'. and other such.)
If society at large ever learns to regard quantum physics as uncontroversial, the same woo merchants, or their heirs, will latch onto whatever the science has more recently uncovered, but has not yet explained.
It's a very old game, and rather sweet, in its way.
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Post #16
[Replying to post 14 by McCulloch]
So why can't I claim that life is observe here but possible elsewhere but probably not existing elsewhere?
It's like demanding a painter can't use red paint unless the whole picture is painted red.
So why can't I claim that life is observe here but possible elsewhere but probably not existing elsewhere?
It's like demanding a painter can't use red paint unless the whole picture is painted red.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Fine tuning of the Universe
Post #17Well first off fine tuning implies an outside influence and I don't believe this so that I won't even touch, but will say things happen cause they can in every experiment across scientific fields shows no outside influence, put proper things together and they just happen because they can.Mr.Badham wrote: I'm confused, because it seems like the argument could go both ways.
Either the universe is fine tuned for life, and therefore is full of it, or only Earth is fine tuned for life, and the rest of the universe will have none of it.
I want theists to take a stand right here and say;
The universe is fine tuned, and is full of life.
Or
The Earth is fine tuned, the rest of the universe has none of it.
Then I want you to stake your religiosity on it. If you make the claim, one way or the other, and are shown to be wrong, you will then become an atheist.
If you are not willing to do this, I would like you to proclaim that the argument is bogus, and should never be used.
You have 1 of 3 options;
The universe is full of life.
Only earth has life.
The fine tuning argument is bogus and should never be used.
I say life is abundant across the universe since the discovery of the elements of all life on earth are found in space. You can actually do this at home take sterile water with no cells present in it, add carbon and nitrogen and a organic film will develop guaranteed. Most creationist don't accept this as creating life but first you have to accept life is created in the first place. Yes this organic compound is not new to Earth but does show that if certain elements are present rudimentary life occurs. This slime is like to algae oh and yes it needs sun or a source of phosphorus or sulfur for the organic material to feed on.
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Post #18
That's the point - If a painting is said to be "fined tuned for red," then the expectation that the picture is predominantly red is perfectly understandable, no? Conversely if a painting is mostly black with a speck of red, one wouldn't suggest that the painting is fine tuned for red.Wootah wrote: It's like demanding a painter can't use red paint unless the whole picture is painted red.
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Post #19
[Replying to post 18 by Bust Nak]
If a uranium mine, with a refinery on top of it turns out a million tons of rock and a couple of kilos of plutonium, would that indicate that the whole shebang wasn't fine-tuned to produce plutonium?
If a uranium mine, with a refinery on top of it turns out a million tons of rock and a couple of kilos of plutonium, would that indicate that the whole shebang wasn't fine-tuned to produce plutonium?
Post #20
[Replying to Box Whatbox]
Right, the mine is fine tuned to produce plutonium, and someone staked their life savings on it. Someone said, "Yes, I believe this mine will pay off. If it produces none or too little, I'm done. I won't believe in this mine anymore."
I personally don't care either way if they're right.
Fine tuning is not my argument. It confuses me.
What I want is a declaration. Are you willing to stake a claim? Pick one, and stake your religiosity on it.
Fine tuning pertains to;
Earth only.
The entire Universe.
Right, the mine is fine tuned to produce plutonium, and someone staked their life savings on it. Someone said, "Yes, I believe this mine will pay off. If it produces none or too little, I'm done. I won't believe in this mine anymore."
I personally don't care either way if they're right.
Fine tuning is not my argument. It confuses me.
What I want is a declaration. Are you willing to stake a claim? Pick one, and stake your religiosity on it.
Fine tuning pertains to;
Earth only.
The entire Universe.