Does God exist?

[otseng]

Does God exist? What reasons are there to believe that God is real?


Admin note:
This thread used to be called "Does God exist or not?"
I have renamed this thread to be "Does God exist?"
Another thread has been created to discuss God's nonexistence, "Disproving God".

[Abs like J']

Somehow I keep on missing your alternate explanations. Please state the other explanations that you are referring to on how the Big Bang got started.

I'm not sure how you missed them considering you responded to the post in which they were provided, as well as quoted that post. From my April 19 post (2:03 pm EST):

• As to the Big Bang, the classical view uses the observed expansion of the known universeto trace back to a moment of singularity at which point the four fundamental forces of nature (strong and weak nuclear forces, the electromagnetic force and gravitation) were unified as a sort of "superforce." As I initially pointed out in response to your claim of only one possible answer, there is no inherent implication of a creator in the classical view to honestly suggest that a god/creator be not only an option, but the only possible option.
  
  Relating to newer cosmological models that take quantum effects into consideration, one pre-Big Bang scenario suggests that the bang is a transition rather than the ultimate origin of our known universe. In one model the universe is infinite with forces such as gravitation beginning weak. As forces grew in strength matter began to clump, sometimes so dense that black holes were formed. The space within the hole expands at an accelerating rate and matter fell toward the center of the hole increasing density until reaching the limit imposed by string theory. Upon the matter reaching the maximum allowed density, quantum effects caused a rebound in the form of a big bang.
  
  Another model utilizes brane cosmology to perceive our universe as a multidimensional membrane existing in a higher dimensional space. According to this model the Big Bang may have been the result of a collision of our brane with a parallel one.

Posited additional dimensions do not transcend the laws of nature.

Why not? The laws of nature only deal with the 4 dimensions. Additional dimensions are posited by theories, not laws.

If we find that the universe is comprised of more than those dimensions we currently know about, they would be part of the natural universe. I wasn't suggesting that the dimensions themselves would be laws, but that if found to be true their existence would not necessarily validate claims of the supernatural.

...it is not too far of a step to guess that things can exist in those additional dimensions. It doesn't have to be Jehovah or any other god. But, it can be entities of any sort to dwell in those dimensions.

The guesses would be nearly inexhaustible. Using the possible existence of other dimensions to validate one theistic hypothesis would be equal to every other theistic or nontheistic guess about what may or may not be found in those additional dimensions.

[jtls1986]

So what you're saying is that energy or matter, which is eternal as far as our knowledge of it goes, and cannot be destroyed or created, could not have had an eternal existence? Why can you accept God alone must be eternal? If one thing can be eternal, so can others, so your logic is somewhat faulty.

So you infer that Matter and energy has always existed from the beginning. Very well, if God does exist, (hypothetical of course), do you believe it is logical God may have created matter and energy? If matter and energy has existed from the beginning, what could have caused this matter and energy to have suddenly created an effect such as the Big Bang? Besides, our current knowledge of things does not necessarily prove that energy and matter are eternal in the first place. Just because someone establishes a specific rule does not mean that rule cannot be disproven.

[Corvus]

So you infer that Matter and energy has always existed from the beginning.

No, I state energy (and matter, which is energy condensed) has so far led an eternal existence. This in now way implies a creator, although it does not entirely rule out the possibility.

Very well, if God does exist, (hypothetical of course), do you believe it is logical God may have created matter and energy?

Yes.

If matter and energy has existed from the beginning, what could have caused this matter and energy to have suddenly created an effect such as the Big Bang?

In case you missed it, Abs pointed to the existence of an infinite universe where the big bang was only one stage of its never-ending life - so there's no "suddenly" or missing links in the cause-effect chain: Relating to newer cosmological models that take quantum effects into consideration, one pre-Big Bang scenario suggests that the bang is a transition rather than the ultimate origin of our known universe. In one model the universe is infinite with forces such as gravitation beginning weak. As forces grew in strength matter began to clump, sometimes so dense that black holes were formed. The space within the hole expands at an accelerating rate and matter fell toward the center of the hole increasing density until reaching the limit imposed by string theory. Upon the matter reaching the maximum allowed density, quantum effects caused a rebound in the form of a big bang.

Suns go through various transitional stages, almost like living entities, all by themselves. But suns have a beginning. Universes may not. Such a thing points to time being cyclical

Some people have trouble ascribing an eternal existence to physical reality, but find it easy to accept it God and heaven, so I do not expect to convert anyone.

Besides, our current knowledge of things does not necessarily prove that energy and matter are eternal in the first place. Just because someone establishes a specific rule does not mean that rule cannot be disproven.

If you want to throw away a fundamental law of physics without reason, other than the fact it does not fit into your personal view of the universe, then be my guest. But I am afraid it comes with the possibility of not being taken seriously, unless you can establish how energy can be created or destroyed through natural means, or why the law might be faulty.

[otseng]

Relating to newer cosmological models that take quantum effects into consideration, one pre-Big Bang scenario suggests that the bang is a transition rather than the ultimate origin of our known universe. In one model the universe is infinite with forces such as gravitation beginning weak. As forces grew in strength matter began to clump, sometimes so dense that black holes were formed. The space within the hole expands at an accelerating rate and matter fell toward the center of the hole increasing density until reaching the limit imposed by string theory. Upon the matter reaching the maximum allowed density, quantum effects caused a rebound in the form of a big bang.

Another model utilizes brane cosmology to perceive our universe as a multidimensional membrane existing in a higher dimensional space. According to this model the Big Bang may have been the result of a collision of our brane with a parallel one.

We can speculate that other universes exist and that somehow our universe came from an alternate universe. But what reasons are there to believe that other universes/membranes exist other than the fact that it's necessary to help explain the origin of the BB?

[otseng]

Besides, our current knowledge of things does not necessarily prove that energy and matter are eternal in the first place. Just because someone establishes a specific rule does not mean that rule cannot be disproven.

If you want to throw away a fundamental law of physics without reason, other than the fact it does not fit into your personal view of the universe, then be my guest. But I am afraid it comes with the possibility of not being taken seriously, unless you can establish how energy can be created or destroyed through natural means, or why the law might be faulty.

Actually, I think the first law of thermo (law of conservation of energy) is another good argument for the existence of God. Assuming that our universe is a closed universe, something outside of the laws of nature must've created it (unless you believe it has existed here for eternity). Matter and energy cannot have just spontaneously appeared from nothing.

[Abs like J']

We can speculate that other universes exist and that somehow our universe came from an alternate universe. But what reasons are there to believe that other universes/membranes exist other than the fact that it's necessary to help explain the origin of the BB?

Neither quantum mechanics or superstring theory came about specifically to address the Big Bang. Quantum physics is widely recognized for explaining the behavior of matter on a subatomic level that couldn't be explained by classical mechanics or Einstein's relativity. The problem in resolving quantum physics with classical physics led to superstring theory, which at present is considered to be the most promising theory. Superstring theory suggested additional dimensions before ever being applied to explaining the Big Bang. The explanation offered for the Big Bang is essentially an unforeseen byproduct of the implied dimensions present in superstring theory.

Actually, I think the first law of thermo (law of conservation of energy) is another good argument for the existence of God. Assuming that our universe is a closed universe, something outside of the laws of nature must've created it (unless you believe it has existed here for eternity). Matter and energy cannot have just spontaneously appeared from nothing.

Even in assuming a closed universe, you don't have to presume that matter and energy spontaneously appeared from nothing or that something outside the laws of nature must have created it. Not even in considering a closed universe is there a necessity to invoke the supernatural.

[otseng]

The explanation offered for the Big Bang is essentially an unforeseen byproduct of the implied dimensions present in superstring theory.

So alternate universes/dimensions giving rise to our universe is simply a possible corollary of the superstring theory. But there is no direct evidence that such alternate universes exist.

My point is not to say that other universes cannot exist. I'm simply saying that it's just a guess. And if our universe somehow originated from another unknown universe, it gives rise to a whole series of questions. How did that initial event take place? Can it ever happen again? How did those alternate universes originate? (By the way, you don't need to answer these questions)

So far then, we have two possible answers on how the Big Bang got started:
1. A Creator/God started it
2. It originated from an alternate universe

Would anybody like to clarify this list or add to it?

Even in assuming a closed universe, you don't have to presume that matter and energy spontaneously appeared from nothing or that something outside the laws of nature must have created it.

Please explain then.

[pbaylis1964]

I don't think God exists. It's possible but it's possible an magic invisible spider monkey inhabits my inner ear. There is one big reason I don’t believe in God. Nobody has ever taken a picture of God, nobody has ever recorded his booming voice and nobody has measured his presence in any way. All things that we know of that exist have been measured. It's definitely not a coincidence that all existent things are also measurable things. Until someone somehow measures God I'll have a hard time believing just like how I have a hard time believing in a magic invisible spider monkey lives in my inner ear.

Miracles happen. There is far more that points to the existence of God than to an invisible monkey inhabiting your inner ear. Very cute and clever, but not worth anything.

[perspective]

There is far more that points to the existence of God than to an invisible monkey inhabiting your inner ear.

I'd love to see solid evidence that points to the existence of God. Otherwise, what's to say that some ancient clerics who wrote about the invisible monkey in my ear weren't telling the truth? Why shouldn't I believe them? You believe that the texts they wrote are proof enough that a God exists. What if they wrote about invisible monkeys in people's ears?

[pbaylis1964]

Look you cats, every atheist wants evidence. The only feasible evidence I can think of for the existence of God, until He shows Himself, is the miracles that have and still continue in the world today. Nothing else will convince an atheist and, besides, they've all been conned by infidels.org and have gotten themselves into such a defensive belligerent frame of mind that very little gets through. They like to cut and paste prepared answers to everything into these types of forums to give Christians the run-around. Very few of them think for themselves, although such sites claim to be for "free thinkers". By the way, that site does nothing but make me laugh loudly.

Now miracles...there are very true and real ones, but athiests either close their ears and dance around the topic, or resort to humour, or say something like "define a miracle", or..the best one..miracles are all doctored, not one of them being worthy of investigation.

How many of you have heard of Medjugorje? Probably a few. Now, if you go to infidels.org, you can see that they have been very busy in their back rooms writing smear documents against this and other plausible Judaeo-Christian truly God-related miracles. These documents are copied and pasted in military fashion by every athiest in these types of forums whenever anyone brings up the subject of Medjugorje or any other type of real miracle (I'm fully aware that there are hoaxes). They take things out of context, try to put non-existent motives into the heart and minds of 6 little children or the Catholic church, blame it on mass-hallucinations and generally do their best to avoid having to acknowledge it. So much for the innocent truth-seeking atheist.

I invite everyone here to take a look at these two websites to see real and true miracles that point to God's existence. No-one is saying it is hard evidence, but it's a definite pointer.

http://www.medjugorjeusa.org
http://www.thereseneumann.de/thereseenglish/index.htm

PRAISE GOD. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW.