Does God exist?

[otseng]

Does God exist? What reasons are there to believe that God is real?


Admin note:
This thread used to be called "Does God exist or not?"
I have renamed this thread to be "Does God exist?"
Another thread has been created to discuss God's nonexistence, "Disproving God".

[perspective]

To play God in our lives and in someone else's life -- doesn't that strike us as in the least bit as terrifying? When life is meaningless, then any behavior from that foundation of reality is equally meaningless and inconsequential. What moral obligation then do we have to be kind or even tolerant of our neighbor if life has no purpose? In a world where there is no such thing as a way "things ought to be", can we really trust ourselves and one another to live peaceably?

The prospect of there not being a god is only terrifying if you really believe in one. Life is only meaningless if the previously conceived meaning is stripped away. Even with religion, there is no such thing as a way "things ought to be", and we don't live peaceably - but we do our best.

Not all atheists choose to not believe in gods. I wanted to believe. I really did. I wanted to belong with the other kids. I wanted to be a part of the great family of believers, who for the most part, were great, loving people. It's like being black in a white neighborhood. You'll never fit in. Never. Anyone who truly reflects on himself will KNOW in his heart whether or not he believes. I just cannot believe. I've searched high and low for what I personally needed to try to fit in with the other white kids in the neighborhood. I've searched high and low and reflected and inflected and searched my deepest convictions. I just don't buy it. The notion that atheists believe as they do out of arrogance or for selfish reasons - to liberate themselves, to seek power - is just an attempt to demonize non-believers. If you really believe in a god, and your god has not shown me what I need to be shown to believe, then maybe you should just trust in him that there was a reason why he didn't.

Someone either believes or they don't. Most people don't actually take themselves seriously enough to do a self-reflection and to really look at their heart whether they believe or not. You can't believe just because you were raised that way, or just because you learned about it, or just because you read the bible, or just because your parents do. All of those things will help you see your own heart, but at the end of the day - you either believe it or you don't. There is no other factor. Those who live their lives thinking that they don't believe without examining their own hearts, those individuals are sad individuals. They're missing out on their reality. Those who live their lives thinking that they believe, but never really examining their own hearts, those individuals are the saddest of all - for they missed the entire reason for living - finding and understanding the truths about their lives.

Your faith is pedestalled by education. But when all the facts are out on the table, it comes down to your own heart. It's not even your own choice - it's not a choice. It's your choice to gain all the facts, but when you have all the facts, there is no choice - you either believe or you don't.

[cookiesusedunderprotest]

Perspective,

I commend you for your honesty and insight in your last post. However, I'm afraid I partially disagree with some of your conclusions about our ability to choose what we believe. I do agree that we cannot change the beliefs of our heart on a whim, rather we must be thoroughly convinced of what we truly believe (I also believe that God changes our hearts, but that's another topic). But I disagree that our beliefs are entirely beyond the scope of our will. What we choose to allow into our minds will eventually shape our hearts. Therefore, one who does not believe in God is choosing to reject the evidence of His existence. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1, NIV)

Of course, due to the sinful nature of man, the general revelation of God though His creation is not enough. So let me ask this (and all are invited to answer): is there anything, such as witnessing a miracle perhaps, that might convince you, or at least open up the possibility, that God exists and works in our lives?

[adherent]

In my studies in biology and even just going for a stroll in my back yard, I can see evidence of a God. On a plane trip from Taiwan to San Fransisco, I saw such magnificent evidence of a God: the deep-blue ocean, the tall peaks on the mountains, and the lush forests. If I were to go to the moon, and look out across the universe and see the earth and other planets, I would likewise see evidence of God.

[perspective]

is there anything, such as witnessing a miracle perhaps, that might convince you, or at least open up the possibility, that God exists and works in our lives?

I know this might sound a bit stubborn, but no. There is nothing that could convince me that a supernatural being exists. Even if I met a man who claimed he was god, and he told me he could prove it. Let's say we went for a walk to the beach, and he walked out on the water. Then he split the tides and walked back on the ocean floor. I would be amazed. I would be excited. But I still would not believe he was supernatural. I would want to study him and ask him how he did it. I would want to learn how. I would want to have him do it again and run tests on the surface tension of the water. Even if all my questions were not answered, I still would not believe that he was supernatural. I'd just believe that he had some illusion or trick or special knowledge. I would want to show my most intelligent friends and find out their theories on how it was done.

It would take a very long time to convince me that this person was superhuman. And even then, I still would not believe he was an all-knowing all-powerful god. I'd believe sooner that he was an alien of superhuman intelligence. And Id want to go to his planet and inspect it.

See, the mind of a scientist....
It really is hopeless.

[Archangel__7]

Well... would you agree it's probably more reflective of a precommitment to naturalism than "science" as it were? One would expect the reasonable scientist to explore all avenues (no matter how outlandish) before dismissing the possibility a priori... But given this scenario and the principle of parsimony, wouldn't a determination to accept ONLY natural explanations as valid force us to expand the levels of explanation beyond what is necessary?

Why should one think that in such a case a belief in the existence of God should be irrational?

[perspective]

But given this scenario and the principle of parsimony, wouldn't a determination to accept ONLY natural explanations as valid force us to expand the levels of explanation beyond what is necessary?

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that we can just invent an explanation for it. Time and time again, throughout history, people's supernatural notions of why and how natural occurences happen have been showed to be irrational. For instance, why the sun rises. The world being flat. The sun rotating around the earth. Things like that. Given history, its not likely that some invented cause is the actual truth. But that's just my opinion. I mean, it's understandable that cultures without the technology of this century would have a misunderstanding of astrology and how the earth rotates around the sun. I do not fault their desire to explain things. But I do fault those who do not learn from history. They're bound to repeat it.

Why should one think that in such a case a belief in the existence of God should be irrational?

I never claimed that belief in the existence of God is irrational. Do I, personally, believe that? Yes. But I'm not the smartest person in the world. I don't claim to be able to prove to others that god does not exist.
One should weigh the evidence and make her own decisions.

[otseng]

I have renamed this topic to "Does God exist?" since there is a separate thread to discuss God's non-existence.

[otseng]

It is interesting that humans for some reason have a need to worship some deity (Zeus, Buddha, Allah, Jehovah, Brahma, Collective Unconscious, and many other dieties). This is a universal phenomenon across all cultures and across the history of civilization. Why is religion so pervasive in human culture? The logical explanation is that we have a need for religion. And I would maintain that it's far more than just a need to explain the unexplainable and to satisfy the mind. But it's also a need we have as humans to meet the needs of our spiritual being. And I believe it is God who created this hunger inside of us.

[Corvus]

It is interesting that humans for some reason have a need to worship some deity (Zeus, Buddha, Allah, Jehovah, Brahma, Collective Unconscious, and many other dieties). This is a universal phenomenon across all cultures and across the history of civilization. Why is religion so pervasive in human culture? The logical explanation is that we have a need for religion. And I would maintain that it's far more than just a need to explain the unexplainable and to satisfy the mind. But it's also a need we have as humans to meet the needs of our spiritual being. And I believe it is God who created this hunger inside of us.

And I believe it may be a basic psychological need in a self-aware species. I believe religion rose out of a need for control and for responsibility. Or perhaps a need to define the world and understand it with a fairly basic perspective, which is why religions mostly consist of two forces, good, or that which helps us, and evil, or that which hinders us.

The oldest gods are often fertility goddesses. Most primal religions are ancestor and nature worship, which don't deal with deities at all. It only goes to show they dealt with the less abstract and the more immediate the more primitive they were.

We are not objective observers of the material world. Perhaps other animals are, but we are not. Every time we look at something, we are looking at an ideal. Every time we desire something, we are desiring an ideal. And when that desire is consummated, it is often the case (especially if the desire is great) that we are at least slightly disappointed, and the desire is found better and more enjoyable than the consummation. This is because the consummation does not bring forth the ideal. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Familiarity breeds contempt. This is why god can gain such a stranglehold on humans. The Christian, Jewish and Muslim God is the ultimate unknown. The desire for Him is the ultimate desire. His ideal or archetype is either based on love or fear, both of which are powerful emotions, and neither of which we really understand - especially love. Our desire for him, or most gods, is all the greater because it cannot be consummated. At least, perhaps, not in this lifetime.

Desire for God is the same as my desire for desire.

I wonder if chimps believe in a god, but I doubt it, since they are only capable of very small amounts of abstract thought.


And Buddha isn't a deity...

[otseng]

And Buddha isn't a deity...

Just seeing who's paying attention.