The Qu'ran

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

The Qu'ran

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

CONVERTED TO ISLAM wrote:quraan is written by allah but other books written by person so you have to read it to make sure
mar wrote:Well i am sure the quran is much unique from among all the other books. [...] the quran has never been changed. The quran was and is as god says himself in the quran that the quran is copyrighted. So there are millions of copys in the world in many translation--but all the same thing. Ones in english, urdu, arabic, chinese, brail... and so on. So which one shall you read? The one that says Quran or koran or coran on the cover. And as the biggining chapter introduces the author (god). You can order many free ones from islam tomorow, or even better go to your local mosque.[...]

So I went to the quran. I read it and I felt closer to god in my whole life. I actually cryed. And now i am closer to god then ever.
I have been invited to read the Qu'ran. It has been claimed that it has the answers to the questions, How can I know if God exists? and How can I know what God wants of me? It has been implied that the divine truth of the Quran is self-evident.

For Debate: If you have read the Qu'ran or part of it, is its divine origin self-evident? Does it make a convincing argument for the existence of God?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #131

Post by TrueReligion »

Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:



Pick anyone you wish...

You have to tell , me, u said muslims sacrificed, now please tel also :)


--

ho nikao kleronomeo houtos kai esomai autos theos kai autos esomai moi huios

The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me. (Rev 21.7)


1st of all, these are not verse of Jesus, Revelation fulll book was rejected by christian scholars, and after too much influence of Church at the end of 364 AD, it was included, but also still it was taking out of bible again n again, proof can be provided upon req.
Further Revelation is jusr dreams of John (not the John disiple, some unknown John). so anything here can't be taken as authentic, your this proof is wrong, try again please:)


Observe that Theos is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb esomai establishing Him as God.

Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him.


This is your asusmption, not writen in Bible, or not Jesus own words. ur proof is wrong again. :whistle:


Now, contrary to popular Islamic belief, we have the Koran explicitly confirming that Jesus Christ is the Son on numerous occasions.

Turning our attention to one of the quintessential Koranic ayahs used by Muslims as evidence for their position, 4.171, we can use this same verse to undeniably demonstrate that Jesus Christ is the Son

4.171









Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on allah except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, allahs messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by allah, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only allah one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by allah, a witness.


Examining the words in question


= yakoona

yakoona definition:

Accusative case. He has been.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3004
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 500 -502
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 169







= la

la definition:

A prefixed affirmative particle, verily, surely, certainly, indeed, truly. Prefix: an affirmative intensifying particle, used as a corroborative. A preposition denoting possession. It is also used as a preposition expressing attribution, design. Inseparable adverbial particle.

References:
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 504 - 505
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 282
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 129







= hu

hu definition:

An indeclinable affixed personal or possessive pronoun of third person singular masculine; when affixed to a verb or preposition as a person pronoun, it means him or it; and when to a noun as a possessive, his or it. Singular personal or possessive pronoun. Him. Verbal suffix which expresses the accusative.

References:
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 100
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 152




Observe that there are no negatives in this phrase at all.only the affirmative


Thus


= la + hu = lahu = certainly his





And the final word under consideration





= waladun

waladun definition:

Noun. Singular and plural. A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one: and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings,: of any kind: often applied to an unborn child, etc, a fetus.

It comes from the root walada, which means she (a woman, or mother, or any animal having an ear, as distinguished from one having merely an ear-hole) brought forth a child, or young one; or children, young, or offspring; to beget, give birth. He begot a child, or young one, etc.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2966 - 2968
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 620 - 621
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 162






Putting it all together we have.



.. He has certainly been his Son .
This is your gimmic, of changing words and making it as your own interpretation.

It says, in simple english and arabic that "O People of the Book! Do not
transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The
Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah.

What you are doing, is that you are removing son of Mary, and joining this word son with Allah. remember, there is gap between it. Any translation you take of Quran, its clearly writen there. you are not following the translation, you are changing the translation with dictionary, and making your own sentence. :)

Nice try, but you fail Apple-Pie once more:)

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #132

Post by TrueReligion »

Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:[quote="Apple Pie

Why are you afraid to post it?

Post it in the Arabic.
25 AL-FURQAN - THE CRITERION
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
SECTION: 1
Blessed is the One Who has revealed Al-Furqan (the criterion to distinguish right
from wrong: The Qur'an) to His servant, that he may be a Warner to the worlds;[1]
He is the One to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, has
begotten no son and has no partner in His kingdom; He has created everything and
ordained them in due proportions.[2] Yet the unbelievers have taken besides Him
other gods which can create nothing but are themselves created, which can neither
harm nor help even themselves, and which have no power over life or death, or
raising the dead to life.

Arabic ->

{1}
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-

{2}
He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

{3}
Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection.

Apple Pie
Banned
Banned
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #133

Post by Apple Pie »

TrueReligion wrote: It says, in simple english and arabic that "O People of the Book! Do not
transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The
Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah.

What you are doing, is that you are removing son of Mary, and joining this word son with Allah. remember, there is gap between it. Any translation you take of Quran, its clearly writen there. you are not following the translation, you are changing the translation with dictionary, and making your own sentence. :)

Nice try, but you fail Apple-Pie once more:)[/color]

The koran was written in Arabic, brother, not English.

However, you don't know any Arabic.

Apple Pie
Banned
Banned
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #134

Post by Apple Pie »

TrueReligion wrote:
Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:[quote="Apple Pie

Why are you afraid to post it?

Post it in the Arabic.
25 AL-FURQAN - THE CRITERION
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
SECTION: 1
Blessed is the One Who has revealed Al-Furqan (the criterion to distinguish right
from wrong: The Qur'an) to His servant, that he may be a Warner to the worlds;[1]
He is the One to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, has
begotten no son and has no partner in His kingdom; He has created everything and
ordained them in due proportions.[2] Yet the unbelievers have taken besides Him
other gods which can create nothing but are themselves created, which can neither
harm nor help even themselves, and which have no power over life or death, or
raising the dead to life.

Arabic ->

{1}
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-

{2}
He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

{3}
Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection.

Where is mentioned in these ayahs?

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #135

Post by Goat »

Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote: It says, in simple english and arabic that "O People of the Book! Do not
transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The
Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah.

What you are doing, is that you are removing son of Mary, and joining this word son with Allah. remember, there is gap between it. Any translation you take of Quran, its clearly writen there. you are not following the translation, you are changing the translation with dictionary, and making your own sentence. :)

Nice try, but you fail Apple-Pie once more:)[/color]

The koran was written in Arabic, brother, not English.

However, you don't know any Arabic.
I have yet to see any evidence you have done anything but cut/pastes from an anti-islamic web site.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Apple Pie
Banned
Banned
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #136

Post by Apple Pie »

goat wrote: I have yet to see any evidence you have done anything but cut/pastes from an anti-islamic web site.
Show us the supposed website, brother.

Good luck...

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #137

Post by Goat »

Apple Pie wrote:
goat wrote: I have yet to see any evidence you have done anything but cut/pastes from an anti-islamic web site.
Show us the supposed website, brother.

Good luck...
Since there are dozens.. I have no idea.

However, I am not your brother.. to which I am very pleased.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Apple Pie
Banned
Banned
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #138

Post by Apple Pie »

goat wrote:
Apple Pie wrote:
goat wrote: I have yet to see any evidence you have done anything but cut/pastes from an anti-islamic web site.
Show us the supposed website, brother.

Good luck...
Since there are dozens.. I have no idea.

However, I am not your brother.. to which I am very pleased.
You have "no idea"...and yet you slavishly reply to a thread of which you know absolutely nothing.

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #139

Post by TrueReligion »

Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote: It says, in simple english and arabic that "O People of the Book! Do not
transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The
Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah.

What you are doing, is that you are removing son of Mary, and joining this word son with Allah. remember, there is gap between it. Any translation you take of Quran, its clearly writen there. you are not following the translation, you are changing the translation with dictionary, and making your own sentence. :)

Nice try, but you fail Apple-Pie once more:)[/color]

The koran was written in Arabic, brother, not English.

However, you don't know any Arabic.
U want to teach an arab arabic??:) dats y im telling you, u r just tempering the words here and there of arabic, which is not correct :)

TrueReligion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:03 am

Re: The Qu'ran

Post #140

Post by TrueReligion »

Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:
Apple Pie wrote:
TrueReligion wrote:[quote="Apple Pie

Why are you afraid to post it?

Post it in the Arabic.
25 AL-FURQAN - THE CRITERION
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
SECTION: 1
Blessed is the One Who has revealed Al-Furqan (the criterion to distinguish right
from wrong: The Qur'an) to His servant, that he may be a Warner to the worlds;[1]
He is the One to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, has
begotten no son and has no partner in His kingdom; He has created everything and
ordained them in due proportions.[2] Yet the unbelievers have taken besides Him
other gods which can create nothing but are themselves created, which can neither
harm nor help even themselves, and which have no power over life or death, or
raising the dead to life.

Arabic ->

{1}
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-

{2}
He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

{3}
Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection.

Where is mentioned in these ayahs?
Learn arabic 1st:) look what Al-Furqann means, and what does Quran means:)

Post Reply