Here is the similar problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists as I see it:
http://mercyandmessiah.blogspot.ca/2013 ... lists.html
P.S. Notice I am using a specific definition of what Fundamentalism from a historical modern definition in Christianity and Islam respectively.
The Problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists
Moderator: Moderators
Post #42
1)I don't think that any god/creator exists. I'm convinced absolutely that none of the manmade and worshiped gods exist.HaLi8993 wrote: Iam
1) What religion do you believe in or are you an Atheist??1)What do I believe about what?
2)What was muhammad supposed to read?
2) What was Muhammad (peace be upon him) supposed to read??? what??
2)The first word spoken to muhammad by "gabriel" was read and apparently he was very insistent, what was he supposed to read?
Post #43
Then you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't talking about Islam's claims. I was talking about your claim that you became a Muslim simply by "seeking the truth." You were influenced by the people around you whether you are willing to admit it or not.HaLi8993 wrote:
Sorry about that, let me be more specific. You said that no body becomes a Muslim or a Christian based on hollow claims, hence the reason I am Muslim because Islam doesn't have any hollow claims.
It is the enemy of true religion because it reduces truth to words on a page. It is actually a form of idolatry--placing a book on the same level as a direct experience of God. True religious practice is far beyond simply having the "correct" beliefs or following the "correct" rules. In spite of your personal bias, Islam is no exception to this reality.
I don't agree, I can understand why you would think this with Christianity. A Fundamentalist is one believes every word in the sacred texts as literal truth. This is the case with Islam. How would this be an enemy of Islam which is the true religion.
No. You have reduced truth to a belief system and a set of rules. This is the religious view of children, whose brains have not yet developed the capacity for abstract thought.
In the contrary the one that believes in the true religion has grasped the hand hold of the ultimate truth.
Truth is not something that can be contained by any mere religion. Religion is a means to an end, nothing more. You have not only made an idol of the Koran, you have made an idol of Islam.I could understand how you could say this about Christianity because it doesn't represent the full truth.
Post #44
Iam
"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not."
(Qur'an, Al-Alak 96:1-5)
Why???1)I don't think that any god/creator exists. I'm convinced absolutely that none of the manmade and worshiped gods exist.
When Angel Gabriel appeared before the Prophet (peace be upon him) the very first time he ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (peace be upon him), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (peace be upon him) again replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak (Quran 96):2)The first word spoken to muhammad by "gabriel" was read and apparently he was very insistent, what was he supposed to read?
"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not."
(Qur'an, Al-Alak 96:1-5)
Post #45
kaykc
Even if all the Quran's were thrown in the ocean it wouldn't matter, because what we have is memorized in the hearts of men.
How is this idolatry?? We are not worshipping the Quran? Does this mean you do not read the bible as this would be considered idolatry??
What more would you need other than a whole way of life which is what Islam is and Christianity is not.
Can you kindly explain to me how this logic of idolization can be remotely true in this regard??
I do not believe that any person can be influenced by anything unless it is against their own will, which would be force. Seeking the truth meant looking for the right answers to life. Islam made complete sense with evidence in this regard and had all the answers, something man made religions cannot offer. My life experiences were my initial voyage to seeking the truth not the people around me, in fact I was faced with many criticism from those around me.Then you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't talking about Islam's claims. I was talking about your claim that you became a Muslim simply by "seeking the truth." You were influenced by the people around you whether you are willing to admit it or not.
Lol, please tell me your joking!It is the enemy of true religion because it reduces truth to words on a page. It is actually a form of idolatry--placing a book on the same level as a direct experience of God. True religious practice is far beyond simply having the "correct" beliefs or following the "correct" rules. In spite of your personal bias, Islam is no exception to this reality.
Even if all the Quran's were thrown in the ocean it wouldn't matter, because what we have is memorized in the hearts of men.
How is this idolatry?? We are not worshipping the Quran? Does this mean you do not read the bible as this would be considered idolatry??
What more would you need other than a whole way of life which is what Islam is and Christianity is not.
Yes, a belief system that covers everything. All aspects of human life. Again what you are saying would apply to Christianity not Islam.No. You have reduced truth to a belief system and a set of rules. This is the religious view of children, whose brains have not yet developed the capacity for abstract thought.
In the contrary man cannot contain the truth as man will always have shortcomings and man does not possess any acknowledge of the future and the knowledge of the unseen, it is God All-Mighty that knows what is truth and what is falsehood not man, hence what He says is truth we follow and what man thinks of truth that is contradictory to what God has revealed is rejected. Therefore God has through religion given us what we need to know of truth as He is the All-Knowing and man is not.Truth is not something that can be contained by any mere religion. Religion is a means to an end, nothing more. You have not only made an idol of the Koran, you have made an idol of Islam.
Can you kindly explain to me how this logic of idolization can be remotely true in this regard??
Post #46
My name is Kayky.HaLi8993 wrote: kaykc
"Influence" does not denote "force." You either do not understand human psychology or you are being disingenuous here. All religions are man-made, but I would be especially leery of one that claims to have "all" the answers. If Islam has "all" the answers, why are Muslim countries in such disarray? Why do Muslims kill other Muslims simply because they cannot agree on what "all" the answers are? This claim on your part represents childlike gullability.
I do not believe that any person can be influenced by anything unless it is against their own will, which would be force. Seeking the truth meant looking for the right answers to life. Islam made complete sense with evidence in this regard and had all the answers, something man made religions cannot offer. My life experiences were my initial voyage to seeking the truth not the people around me, in fact I was faced with many criticism from those around me.
Kayky: It is the enemy of true religion because it reduces truth to words on a page. It is actually a form of idolatry--placing a book on the same level as a direct experience of God. True religious practice is far beyond simply having the "correct" beliefs or following the "correct" rules. In spite of your personal bias, Islam is no exception to this reality.
I can assure you that I am perfectly serious. Do you see any silly "LOL's" in my post?Lol, please tell me your joking!
This makes no difference whatsoever. It's still the Koran, a book with a human author, even after it has been memorized. I think it is very telling that you think there is a distinction between the two.Even if all the Quran's were thrown in the ocean it wouldn't matter, because what we have is memorized in the hearts of men.
It is idolatry because you place it on the same level as God. That's why Muslims get so upset if someone does something disrespectful to a copy of the Koran. Some Muslims are even willing to kill over it. You don't seem to realize it is just ink on paper. I read the Bible, but I don't think God wrote it.How is this idolatry?? We are not worshipping the Quran? Does this mean you do not read the bible as this would be considered idolatry??
I do not want my whole life to be dictated by a book. I have my own mind and my own free will. As far as I can see, you are a prisoner to this book.What more would you need other than a whole way of life which is what Islam is and Christianity is not.
I'm sure there are fundamentalist Christians who view their religion in just such a simplistic way. True religion has nothing to do with beliefs and rules. It has to do with a life-transformative experience of God. After that, you have no need of beliefs and rules.
Yes, a belief system that covers everything. All aspects of human life. Again what you are saying would apply to Christianity not Islam.
Kayky: Truth is not something that can be contained by any mere religion. Religion is a means to an end, nothing more. You have not only made an idol of the Koran, you have made an idol of Islam.
And this is why I know with absolute certainty that you do not even understand the nature of truth. You think you have found it in a book and a religion. Therefore, you have not found it at all.In the contrary man cannot contain the truth as man will always have shortcomings and man does not possess any acknowledge of the future and the knowledge of the unseen, it is God All-Mighty that knows what is truth and what is falsehood not man, hence what He says is truth we follow and what man thinks of truth that is contradictory to what God has revealed is rejected. Therefore God has through religion given us what we need to know of truth as He is the All-Knowing and man is not.
I think I did a good job of that above. Let me know if have any more questions about it.Can you kindly explain to me how this logic of idolization can be remotely true in this regard??
Post #47
So ancient quaraishi had one word that meant many conflicting things. I mean read has absolutely nothing to do with recite or repeat or proclaim. Does this word still have the same meaning in non quairashi arabic? If so how do you get your children to read a book rather than preach the gospel of muhammad?HaLi8993 wrote: Iam
Why???1)I don't think that any god/creator exists. I'm convinced absolutely that none of the manmade and worshiped gods exist.
When Angel Gabriel appeared before the Prophet (peace be upon him) the very first time he ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (peace be upon him), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (peace be upon him) again replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak (Quran 96):2)The first word spoken to muhammad by "gabriel" was read and apparently he was very insistent, what was he supposed to read?
"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not."
(Qur'an, Al-Alak 96:1-5)
But of course we can see in the bolded that you still use the word READ
But more importantly he claims that your god TEACHES BY THE PEN and yet muhammad resisted any attempt to write this holy koran for all of his prophethood and in fact I believe that muslims don't consider the written koran to be the koran, rather the memorised koran is the only valid koran. Isn't that so? And the message from THE PEN only occurred a long time after his death. Why did "gabriel" command muhammad to READ violently and why did muhammad refuse to distribute the word of The Most Bounteous by the pen?
Post #48
kayky
Any person who thinks it is morally and ethically correct to burn something that is so dear to a group of people, has done so out of hatred, disrespect and animosity, hence such actions cannot be tolerated. You don't seem to realize that it is more than ink on paper rather the words of God, hence the reason we as Muslims respect the Quran highly.
Your right God didn't write the bible man wrote it, nor is it a complete revelation from God, even though it may have verses that may not have been changed, other parts have, hence the reason why Christianity cannot be considered the right religion as God's religion cannot be changed.
I apologize, I will address you as kayky from now on.My name is Kayky.
If someone does not want to believe in a particular belief then he/she will not be influenced, it is only when one is in doubt or is forced to believe in a thing that one can be influenced in changing his ways. Islam is from God. The reason for the current situation of Muslims today is due to them straying from the application of Shariah Law (God's Law) in it's totality. There are among this other reasons such as lack of religious education and western domination and influence in Muslim countries. In Islam we are not allowed to kill a Muslim. If people are taking the laws of God into their own hands then this is the crime of the individual and not the crime of Islam."Influence" does not denote "force." You either do not understand human psychology or you are being disingenuous here. All religions are man-made, but I would be especially leery of one that claims to have "all" the answers. If Islam has "all" the answers, why are Muslim countries in such disarray? Why do Muslims kill other Muslims simply because they cannot agree on what "all" the answers are? This claim on your part represents childlike gullability.
Nope, that's what concerns me!I can assure you that I am perfectly serious. Do you see any silly "LOL's" in my post?
Nope, it was compiled by man, the words of God. The contents is not written by man hence the author is not man.This makes no difference whatsoever. It's still the Koran, a book with a human author, even after it has been memorized. I think it is very telling that you think there is a distinction between the two.
How are we placing it on the same level as God?? Are we saying that the Quran is a partner of God or worshipping the Quran??, as Christians do with Jesus (peace be upon him)??It is idolatry because you place it on the same level as God. That's why Muslims get so upset if someone does something disrespectful to a copy of the Koran. Some Muslims are even willing to kill over it. You don't seem to realize it is just ink on paper. I read the Bible, but I don't think God wrote it.
Any person who thinks it is morally and ethically correct to burn something that is so dear to a group of people, has done so out of hatred, disrespect and animosity, hence such actions cannot be tolerated. You don't seem to realize that it is more than ink on paper rather the words of God, hence the reason we as Muslims respect the Quran highly.
Your right God didn't write the bible man wrote it, nor is it a complete revelation from God, even though it may have verses that may not have been changed, other parts have, hence the reason why Christianity cannot be considered the right religion as God's religion cannot be changed.
That is your decision, that is why I am a Muslim and you are Christian. I submit to the will God and you submit to the will of man, whims and desires, and your own personal opinions and so forth. Placing your knowledge above that of God's. Who said Islam doesn't allow one to use their own mind??I do not want my whole life to be dictated by a book. I have my own mind and my own free will. As far as I can see, you are a prisoner to this book.
Again where is your evidence for this, this is simply your opinion and wishful thinking.I'm sure there are fundamentalist Christians who view their religion in just such a simplistic way. True religion has nothing to do with beliefs and rules. It has to do with a life-transformative experience of God. After that, you have no need of beliefs and rules.
I understand the truth by what God has revealed to us of the truth as He is above His Creation and encompasses all truth. This is sufficient for the One that knows that His Lord is All-Knowing and Wise. For the one that doesn't believe in the truth revealed to him by God, has to resort to other things in an attempt to find truth. I wouldn't call what man declares as truth as truth at all especially when it is in contradiction with God's Knowledge, as He will always be short of truth as he will always be limited in his knowledge.And this is why I know with absolute certainty that you do not even understand the nature of truth. You think you have found it in a book and a religion. Therefore, you have not found it at all.
Can you paste for me the definition of idolization please, cause you still haven't made a correlation as to how the Quran is idolized, thanks.I think I did a good job of that above. Let me know if have any more questions about it.
Post #49
Iam
Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate hence could not write this down, there is no contradiction with this verse because the meaning of the verse is dealing with the Honor and Nobility of Man being in His Knowledge. These verses are informing us of the beginning of man's creation from a dangling clot, and that out of God's generosity He taught man that which he did not know. Thus, God exalted him and honored him by giving him knowledge, and it is the dignity that the Father of Humanity, Adam, was distinguished with over the angels. Knowledge sometimes is in the mind, sometimes on the tongue, and sometimes in writing with the fingers. Thus, it may be intellectual, spoken and written. And while the last (written) necessitates the first two (intellectual and spoken), the reverse is not true. For this reason God says,
"Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not"
There is a narration that states, "Record knowledge by writing.'' There is also a saying which states, "Whoever acts according to what he knows, Allah will make him inherit knowledge that he did not know.''
Both the written and memorized Quran is the same, word for word meaning for meaning, letter for letter. I have never met anyone that has said otherwise, so I'm not sure where you got this from? The Quran was memorized in the hearts of men. God did not command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to write it down nor distribute the word by pen, can you show me where it says this? where did you get this from? He commanded him to notify mankind of the message and teach people the religion of God. Therefore he did not refuse to do so and has completed the religion God bestowed on him.
Due to the richness and eloquence of the Arabic language, a word can have more than one meaning. They are not conflicting they all interconnect with each other, you cannot recite, repeat or proclaim something without reading it, hence you would use the appropriate word in it's context for what you wish to say.So ancient quaraishi had one word that meant many conflicting things. I mean read has absolutely nothing to do with recite or repeat or proclaim. Does this word still have the same meaning in non quairashi arabic? If so how do you get your children to read a book rather than preach the gospel of muhammad?
But of course we can see in the bolded that you still use the word READ
But more importantly he claims that your god TEACHES BY THE PEN and yet muhammad resisted any attempt to write this holy koran for all of his prophethood and in fact I believe that muslims don't consider the written koran to be the koran, rather the memorised koran is the only valid koran. Isn't that so? And the message from THE PEN only occurred a long time after his death. Why did "gabriel" command muhammad to READ violently and why did muhammad refuse to distribute the word of The Most Bounteous by the pen?
Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate hence could not write this down, there is no contradiction with this verse because the meaning of the verse is dealing with the Honor and Nobility of Man being in His Knowledge. These verses are informing us of the beginning of man's creation from a dangling clot, and that out of God's generosity He taught man that which he did not know. Thus, God exalted him and honored him by giving him knowledge, and it is the dignity that the Father of Humanity, Adam, was distinguished with over the angels. Knowledge sometimes is in the mind, sometimes on the tongue, and sometimes in writing with the fingers. Thus, it may be intellectual, spoken and written. And while the last (written) necessitates the first two (intellectual and spoken), the reverse is not true. For this reason God says,
"Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not"
There is a narration that states, "Record knowledge by writing.'' There is also a saying which states, "Whoever acts according to what he knows, Allah will make him inherit knowledge that he did not know.''
Both the written and memorized Quran is the same, word for word meaning for meaning, letter for letter. I have never met anyone that has said otherwise, so I'm not sure where you got this from? The Quran was memorized in the hearts of men. God did not command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to write it down nor distribute the word by pen, can you show me where it says this? where did you get this from? He commanded him to notify mankind of the message and teach people the religion of God. Therefore he did not refuse to do so and has completed the religion God bestowed on him.
Post #50
Richness and eloquence produces one word that has 5 conflicting meanings? OK believe that if you absolutely need to. It's not possible toHaLi8993 wrote: Iam
Due to the richness and eloquence of the Arabic language, a word can have more than one meaning. They are not conflicting they all interconnect with each other, you cannot recite, repeat or proclaim something without reading it, hence you would use the appropriate word in it's context for what you wish to say.So ancient quaraishi had one word that meant many conflicting things. I mean read has absolutely nothing to do with recite or repeat or proclaim. Does this word still have the same meaning in non quairashi arabic? If so how do you get your children to read a book rather than preach the gospel of muhammad?
But of course we can see in the bolded that you still use the word READ
But more importantly he claims that your god TEACHES BY THE PEN and yet muhammad resisted any attempt to write this holy koran for all of his prophethood and in fact I believe that muslims don't consider the written koran to be the koran, rather the memorised koran is the only valid koran. Isn't that so? And the message from THE PEN only occurred a long time after his death. Why did "gabriel" command muhammad to READ violently and why did muhammad refuse to distribute the word of The Most Bounteous by the pen?
. Are you now claiming that muhammad could in fact read and therefore new of the previous religious writings, or are you claiming that muhammad could not possibly have recited the words of god because he couldn't read? Those are the only two options open to you.recite, repeat or proclaim something without reading it
Wow you need to do more gymnastics to defend the first words spoken to muhammad than the christians could ever achieve. This sentence, allegedly the first spoken to muhammad by gabriel has nothing to at all to do with Honor and Nobility of Man being in His Knowledge it is in fact about gabriel/god not knowing that muhammad couldn't read or conversely could read and is a liar.HaLi8993 wrote: Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate hence could not write this down, there is no contradiction with this verse because the meaning of the verse is dealing with the Honor and Nobility of Man being in His Knowledge. These verses are informing us of the beginning of man's creation from a dangling clot, and that out of God's generosity He taught man that which he did not know. Thus, God exalted him and honored him by giving him knowledge, and it is the dignity that the Father of Humanity, Adam, was distinguished with over the angels. Knowledge sometimes is in the mind, sometimes on the tongue, and sometimes in writing with the fingers. Thus, it may be intellectual, spoken and written. And while the last (written) necessitates the first two (intellectual and spoken), the reverse is not true. For this reason God says,
"Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not"
Narrations cannot be used to deny the koran And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen is what muhammad was told and yet the narrations record muhammad disallowing the written recording of his alleged revelations. In fact the narrations are quite specific about the argument regarding a written record before Abu Bakr decreed that it should be done. The main argument against a written record was the companions who knew that muhammad hadHaLi8993 wrote:There is a narration that states, "Record knowledge by writing.'' There is also a saying which states, "Whoever acts according to what he knows, Allah will make him inherit knowledge that he did not know.''
refused permission to do so. Hence muhammad was refusing the very first and second command of your god.
Well I got it from muslims of course. The heart has no need of memory, this contention is just nonsensical and a platitude for the poor ignorant masses.HaLi8993 wrote: Both the written and memorized Quran is the same, word for word meaning for meaning, letter for letter. I have never met anyone that has said otherwise, so I'm not sure where you got this from? The Quran was memorized in the hearts of men. God did not command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to write it down nor distribute the word by pen, can you show me where it says this? where did you get this from? He commanded him to notify mankind of the message and teach people the religion of God. Therefore he did not refuse to do so and has completed the religion God bestowed on him.
Yes I can.God did not command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to write it down nor distribute the word by pen, can you show me where it says this?
Now which conflicting definition of the word iqra was gabriel ordering muhammad to do. You claim it wasn't read, but you also claim that the other definitions rely on the capacity to read. Was it recite, well he'd been given nothing to recite, so why did gabriel try to crush him for not obeying? Or was it not understanding? Surely the god that was working through gabriel would have understood muhammad misunderstanding? Apparently not. What was gabriel getting so bent out of shape about if he had given nothing for muhammad to repeat? But why would he get bent out of shape if your god knows everything anyway? Your god had already written what muhammad would say, why didn't gabriel know what was happening? Poor old muhammad hadn't been given anything to proclaim, how could he iqra that . Who was it that got everything wrong?"Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen.
God..............cos he had already written what would happen?
Gabriel..........cos god would have given him all the information he needed?
Muhammad...........cos he just lied about the whole thing?
