Contradictions in Holy Books

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Take a work of fiction, say the Middle Earth of JRR Tolkien, or Frank Herberts Dune, or Scott Westerfelds The Risen Empire. I havent hunted through them for contradictions, but it remains entirely possible that the author made these fictional worlds internally coherent, and containing no contradictions.

How does this prove the validity of the claims made in the writings themselves though? If a Bible or Qurn can be shown as completely coherent and containing no contradictions, how does this prove that god exists and that the scriptures particular version of god actually exists?

[TrueReligion]

Will you accept the website answering islam?

This means youdont have any proper contradiction for Quran,:) so your claim is wrong again

[/quote]

Please tell me then what websites you would allow to be used, I have been down this road with you before and instead of listing anything just to have you not allow it out of hand it's much easier to ask you what you would accept.

Will you accept the website answering islam?[/quote]

Do you make your claims from websites only? you dont have your own views? bring any contradiction here of Quran, and we will discuss. why its so hard for you? r'nt you true to your claims?

[Wyvern]

Will you accept the website answering islam?

This means youdont have any proper contradiction for Quran,:) so your claim is wrong again

Please tell me then what websites you would allow to be used, I have been down this road with you before and instead of listing anything just to have you not allow it out of hand it's much easier to ask you what you would accept.

Will you accept the website answering islam?[/quote]

Do you make your claims from websites only? you dont have your own views? bring any contradiction here of Quran, and we will discuss. why its so hard for you? r'nt you true to your claims?[/quote]
Will you accept the website answering islam?

[Wyvern]

Fine here are some contradictions contained within the koran as you asked for.

All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

1.What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
a."Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
b."We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
c."The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
d."But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
e."He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
2.Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
a."Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
b."And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
c."But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
d.Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
3.The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
a."And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
b."When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
c."And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
4.Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
a.Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
b.The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
5.Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
a."Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
b."The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
c.None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
d.When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
6.Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
a."We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
b.Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
7.Is wine consumption good or bad?
a.O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
b.(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
c.Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

[TrueReligion]

Fine here are some contradictions contained within the koran as you asked for.

All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

1.What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
a."Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
b."We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
c."The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
d."But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
e."He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
2.Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
a."Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
b."And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
c."But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
d.Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
3.The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
a."And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
b."When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
c."And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
4.Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
a.Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
b.The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
5.Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
a."Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
b."The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
c.None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
d.When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
6.Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
a."We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
b.Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
7.Is wine consumption good or bad?
a.O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
b.(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
c.Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

Ok, its a good thing that atleast you point out what is required.
I will just ask 1 favor from you and others, that if I can go 1 at a time of this list you provided, so we can concentrate ,
And, after I reply to 1 of list here, I will point of 1 contradiction from Bible as well, which you have to defend, so we have a neutral debate. is it ok Wyvern?
Plus I would request some neutral judge to decide for this, so it wil be a healthy and truthful debate

* What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

Answer-> Its not a contradiction, explanation are given below

If three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

If two physicists now came along and one said "bread is made from atoms" and the other said "bread is made from molecules," would this be an even further "contradiction"?

The blood of all living creatures is composed of 55 percent plasma, which in turn is composed of more than 90 percent water. As opposed to 1400 centuries ago when the Qur'an was first revealed by God, today it is a well known fact that the major "ingredient" in the human body is water (a matter emphasized ONLY in the Qur'an and not in the Bible).
It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust?
It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

Hope I;am quite clear in this, and answer to 2nd contradiction will be replied afterwards.

Contradiction in Bible

1). When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)

[Wyvern]

If three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

Except of course that all of the answers given in the koran are wrong. To make the two equivalent the bakers would have to say that bread is made of meat, sand and cotton. It is obvious that man is not made of dust, clay, blood clots or nothing.

It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust?
It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

Man is not made of dust and clay is not a special form of dust and water. Both have high percentages of silicates and alumina within their composition while man has neither. Was man created by god during this time when there was nothing? If not then man is made from something, nice gymnastics though.

[TrueReligion]

If three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

Except of course that all of the answers given in the koran are wrong. To make the two equivalent the bakers would have to say that bread is made of meat, sand and cotton. It is obvious that man is not made of dust, clay, blood clots or nothing.

It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust?
It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

Man is not made of dust and clay is not a special form of dust and water. Both have high percentages of silicates and alumina within their composition while man has neither. Was man created by god during this time when there was nothing? If not then man is made from something, nice gymnastics though.

get some knowledge of science my dear:) till now you can;t prove anythign wrong.
But where is the answer to my question of Bible contradiction? you r;nt playing fair debate here

[Wyvern]

If three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

Except of course that all of the answers given in the koran are wrong. To make the two equivalent the bakers would have to say that bread is made of meat, sand and cotton. It is obvious that man is not made of dust, clay, blood clots or nothing.

It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust?
It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

Man is not made of dust and clay is not a special form of dust and water. Both have high percentages of silicates and alumina within their composition while man has neither. Was man created by god during this time when there was nothing? If not then man is made from something, nice gymnastics though.

get some knowledge of science my dear:) till now you can;t prove anythign wrong.
But where is the answer to my question of Bible contradiction? you r;nt playing fair debate here

Please I want to read in your own words a response instead of this uncited paste job. I would love to hear from you how humans can be made out of four different things and yet somehow is not contradicting both itself and reality especially when one of those things is nothing.

Where did I say that there are not contradictions in the bible? I said that the koran is no better than the bible which is what you challenged. I have already shown a contradiction in the koran which your retort to is based on false beliefs(i.e. that clay is just dirt and water)from an unknown author. How about actually showing scientifically that humans are made from dust as your book says, if what you say is true then the composition of humans should mirror the composition of the earth.

[TrueReligion]

If three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?

Except of course that all of the answers given in the koran are wrong. To make the two equivalent the bakers would have to say that bread is made of meat, sand and cotton. It is obvious that man is not made of dust, clay, blood clots or nothing.

It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust?
It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

Man is not made of dust and clay is not a special form of dust and water. Both have high percentages of silicates and alumina within their composition while man has neither. Was man created by god during this time when there was nothing? If not then man is made from something, nice gymnastics though.

get some knowledge of science my dear:) till now you can;t prove anythign wrong.
But where is the answer to my question of Bible contradiction? you r;nt playing fair debate here

Please I want to read in your own words a response instead of this uncited paste job. I would love to hear from you how humans can be made out of four different things and yet somehow is not contradicting both itself and reality especially when one of those things is nothing.

Where did I say that there are not contradictions in the bible? I said that the koran is no better than the bible which is what you challenged. I have already shown a contradiction in the koran which your retort to is based on false beliefs(i.e. that clay is just dirt and water)from an unknown author. How about actually showing scientifically that humans are made from dust as your book says, if what you say is true then the composition of humans should mirror the composition of the earth.

Wyvern, many of times it happens that you ask claim,and I provide the site, but you just deny it, as its showing that you are wrong in your claim.
But still, as I'am doing a neutral debate, I will provide the facts,knowing though that you wont belief any of authentic claim and evidence as always.

You claim that human body is not madeup of water right? but human body has 65-90% of water by weight.
chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/.../blbodyelements.htm

You say that human body is not made up of blood, right? but white and red blood cells are required for human body formation, and a normal adult has 6quarts of blood.

Now tell me, as its said about sand, when human body is burried, why bones are remaining and where other things go? evaporate?
Isn't silicon the key component of sand? and isn't silicon key ingrediant in human body?

About other minerals you mention, where they come from? ofcourse inside sand. the element names were not available and dont take Quran asa science book my friend.

For bible, as you said its already having many errors, no need to discuss . so I guess we are done by all clarification for Quran.
Rest, we are talking about contradiction, not science here, so all in these verses, there is no contradiction, as its pointing to all ingrediants in human body in any form. Dont discuss science topic here, we will just make the post long and out of topic.

[Wyvern]

You claim that human body is not madeup of water right? but human body has 65-90% of water by weight.
chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/.../blbodyelements.htm

I never made this claim.

You say that human body is not made up of blood, right? but white and red blood cells are required for human body formation, and a normal adult has 6quarts of blood.

From my work in the medical field I am quite aware of this fact, but then again I never made this claim. The koran states man is made of a blood clot which is not the same as blood, after blood clots most of the water is gone and it consists primarily of platelets. So if you actually wanted to be more correct you would have said that man is made of a blood clot which primarily consists of protein.

Now tell me, as its said about sand, when human body is burried, why bones are remaining and where other things go? evaporate?
Isn't silicon the key component of sand? and isn't silicon key ingrediant in human body?

No you are just plain wrong, bones are made mostly of calcium. Silicates that enter the body tend to be very unhealthy.

About other minerals you mention, where they come from? ofcourse inside sand. the element names were not available and dont take Quran asa science book my friend.

No sorry sand is a general term and it really depends on the type of sand you are talking about to determine what it consists of. I am not the one making scientific claims about the koran, you are in another thread.

For bible, as you said its already having many errors, no need to discuss . so I guess we are done by all clarification for Quran.
Rest, we are talking about contradiction, not science here, so all in these verses, there is no contradiction, as its pointing to all ingrediants in human body in any form. Dont discuss science topic here, we will just make the post long and out of topic.

If the koran makes a claim that can easily be falsified by science it makes perfect sense to do so. Doing so means I have shown that the koran contradicts reality. Just as I have demonstrated here that bones are not made of sand or any other silicate which means that the koran is in contradiction to this well known fact.

[TrueReligion]

You claim that human body is not madeup of water right? but human body has 65-90% of water by weight.
chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/.../blbodyelements.htm

I never made this claim.

You say that human body is not made up of blood, right? but white and red blood cells are required for human body formation, and a normal adult has 6quarts of blood.

From my work in the medical field I am quite aware of this fact, but then again I never made this claim. The koran states man is made of a blood clot which is not the same as blood, after blood clots most of the water is gone and it consists primarily of platelets. So if you actually wanted to be more correct you would have said that man is made of a blood clot which primarily consists of protein.

Now tell me, as its said about sand, when human body is burried, why bones are remaining and where other things go? evaporate?
Isn't silicon the key component of sand? and isn't silicon key ingrediant in human body?

No you are just plain wrong, bones are made mostly of calcium. Silicates that enter the body tend to be very unhealthy.

About other minerals you mention, where they come from? ofcourse inside sand. the element names were not available and dont take Quran asa science book my friend.

No sorry sand is a general term and it really depends on the type of sand you are talking about to determine what it consists of. I am not the one making scientific claims about the koran, you are in another thread.

For bible, as you said its already having many errors, no need to discuss . so I guess we are done by all clarification for Quran.
Rest, we are talking about contradiction, not science here, so all in these verses, there is no contradiction, as its pointing to all ingrediants in human body in any form. Dont discuss science topic here, we will just make the post long and out of topic.

If the koran makes a claim that can easily be falsified by science it makes perfect sense to do so. Doing so means I have shown that the koran contradicts reality. Just as I have demonstrated here that bones are not made of sand or any other silicate which means that the koran is in contradiction to this well known fact.

Wyvern, all of topic beside, but we are discussing contradictions, its shown already that there is no contradiction in what a man is made up of, as they all tend to same thing and ingrediants of 1 thing while making, preparing.

Do you want to move on #-2?