Does the Koran condemn this?

[achilles12604]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080202/ts_nm/iraq_dc

Using mentally handicapped women as unknowing bombs? Is this condemned in the Koran? Is it supported?

[achilles12604]

achilles wrote:

How about this . . .

You read the second article I presented as you only addressed one. Then you show me the verses where it says not to do this. Then I will research and try to find verses where it says TO do this. And we can compare.

Agreed?

well if you are talking about jihad, then ofcourse you can find many verses in the quran regarding it ,

but the question is that how do you interpret them.

if they are taken out of context ,then they appear to be violent, but if you want to know the real meaning then it is always neccessary to read them in context,

i suspect that even you have any such out of context quotings of the verses of the quran,

so it would be better if you post your queries first.

Ok. Lets start with the laws regarding women.

"4.34": Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Women are to obey men.

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise." The Cow 2:28

Women are NOT equal to men. Interestingly this contradicts . . .

Surah 30(Ar-Rum), verse 21 says, “ And of His Signs is that he creates for you mates out of yourselves, so that you may find tranquility in them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Surely in this there are indeed Signs for a people who reflect.” Unlike Christianity, Islam does not say that a woman was created out of a man’s ribs. Islam says that man and woman were created equal. Relation between a husband and wife should be of love and understanding.

This person's account of things. Is the writer of the piece above simply wrong in their interpretation or does the Koran have a contradiction?
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... koran.html

"33.59": O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Women must cover themselves.




Ok so we can see that those who are Muslim are in fact supposed to do the things that these women were killed for. The women who are killed were not covering themselves, they were not obedient to men, etc.

So now we should look to see what happens to those who refuse to obey the holy Koran . . .

"33.60": If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;

"33.61": Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.

Ok, so let's get this straight. Those who proclaim Muslim beliefs and then do not obey (hypocrites), shall be murdered a horrible murdering.



It seems pretty clear cut to me. Those who murdered the women were justified and right according to the holy Koran.


Your turn.

Women are NOT equal to men.

3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."

Spiritual equality, responsibility and accountability for both men and women is a well-developed theme in the Quran. Spiritual equality between men and women in the sight of God is not limited to purely spiritual, religious issues, but is the basis for equality in all temporal aspects of human endeavor.

"Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward." (33:35)

It is paramount to understand tha tthe Quran equates being a "mu'min" (sing.) with actual practice, so that it is not enough to just have faith in principle; we must put our faith into practice. The same applies to our belief in the equality of men and women; gender equality as outlined in the Quran must also be put into practice.

So bottom line it for me instead of playing around.

Women not being equal to men doesn't even apply to the questions I posed.

I asked . . . .

Is this behavior supported by the Koran?

Is this behavior indicitive of a "good" Muslim?

I want to know if murdering women for not wearing the proper head coverings, etc is the "good and right" thing to do according to the Koran.

I did not ask if women were equal to me so thanks for answering a question I did not ask.

I have asked this same question in 2 (3?) different threads now. I have not received an answer.

Thus far the ONLY reply I have received is the above commentary which states that women are not equal to men.

Show of hands. Who thinks that stating that women are not equal to men is a full answer to the question, does the Koran support the killing of those women?

UMAIR - you told me to put forth my best sets of scripture to support this claim. I have done so.

Where is your reply? Why do you remain silent?

[Fallibleone]

I completely missed muhammad rasullah claiming that women are not equal to men. I guessed that's why he stopped replying to me.

[Bigmo]

Lets see what the Koran really say and lets stop this hide and seek. Most of you are debating Sunni and not Koranist. Their knowledge of the Koran is minimal since their doctrine is based on Bukhari's collection of hadiths. Many of you christians keep looking at the Koran with that it must be this verse or maybe that verse thats inspiring the wahhabi jihadist. Lets look at what the Koran actuall tells the prophet to do:

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

Lets not play hide and seek and quote the Koran correctly:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Now what does the koran say about what Muhammad's jurisdiction is:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

What do Sunnis believe, the follow the hadiths compiled by Bukhari 2 centuries after Muhammad which they believe is Muhammad's words and deeds to "clarify and explain"; the Koran. Sunnis believe hadiths abrogates the koran and not vice versa. Soi what do we have in Bukharis collection favored by Sunnis and the likes of Roberts Spencer and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan.

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: Bukhari
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"



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Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58: Bukhari
Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"



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Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59: Bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira:

When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."


This is what the terrorist follow. There are two Muhammads, one in the koran the other in hadiths. So which is the true one

[Ilias Ahmad]

Suicide bombing is condemned in the strongest terms in Islam. Suicide in general is absolutely forbidden, so how much worse is killing yourself along with other innocent people?

First the Holy Quran:

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! (4:92)

Here Allah says: wala taqtaloo anfusakum (and do not kill yourselves), which is the root for the Islamic prohibition against suicide.

The Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said regarding the punishment for suicide in Hell:

"He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire" (sahih bukhari)

Thus the punishment for the one who commits suicide is that in hell he shall perpetually punish himself in the identical manner he originally killed himself.

The great shaykh of Saudi Arabia, Shaykh Muhammad bin Salih al uthaymeen (Rahmatullah alaih) made a verdict (Fatwa) against suicide bombing in which he stated: "So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide bombings have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into the Hellfire, and Allah's refuge is sought; and that this person is not a martyr."

Therefore, suicide bombing is absolutely and unconditionally prohibited in Islam. For one who believes otherwise, we ask him to bring his evidence.

[McCulloch]

Suicide bombing is condemned in the strongest terms in Islam. Suicide in general is absolutely forbidden, so how much worse is killing yourself along with other innocent people?
[...]
Therefore, suicide bombing is absolutely and unconditionally prohibited in Islam. For one who believes otherwise, we ask him to bring his evidence.

And yet one does not hear of suicide bombers dedicated to other faith groups. There must be many and powerful false Muslims out there.

[Ilias Ahmad]

And yet one does not hear of suicide bombers dedicated to other faith groups. There must be many and powerful false Muslims out there.

Ever heard of the Japanese kamikaze pilots of world war II? What was their religion? What about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Tamil Tigers) whose religion is Hinduism, and many Christians as well.

[Ms_Maryam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080202/ts_nm/iraq_dc

Using mentally handicapped women as unknowing bombs? Is this condemned in the Koran? Is it supported?

Hmm let's see

"On that account: We ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief across the land (i.e. fighting in war)- It would be as if he killed the whole people: And if anyone saved a life It would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excess in the land."

That's from the Quran. So you tell me, after reading this, do you think the Quran condems that?

Edited to add: I don't care if someone claims to be the best Muslim ever in the world or whatever... If he/she kills an innocent person, that's against Islam and doesn't make it right.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Note that the Qur’an states it had that rule FOR THE JEWS (children of Israel). That may not necessarily apply to muslims (and doesn’t seem to by all the sectarian violence going on between Muslims, not to mention murdering ‘infidels’)!

[Ms_Maryam]

Note that the Qur’an states it had that rule FOR THE JEWS (children of Israel). That may not necessarily apply to muslims (and doesn’t seem to by all the sectarian violence going on between Muslims, not to mention murdering ‘infidels’)!

Then shall I find another verse in the Quran where it states the same thing?....

" Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Hallah really prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; Be good to your parents; Kill not your children on a plea of want - We provide sustenance for you and for them - come not nigh to shamefull deeds, whether open or secret; Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by the way of justice and law: Thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."

Chapter 6, verse 151

[Ms_Maryam]

And yet one does not hear of suicide bombers dedicated to other faith groups. There must be many and powerful false Muslims out there.

Ever heard of the Japanese kamikaze pilots of world war II? What was their religion? What about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Tamil Tigers) whose religion is Hinduism, and many Christians as well.

I agree with Ilias.

Surely you know that there are many people who kill innocent who are of other different religions.

And McCulloch, I agree. There are some Muslims out there falsely representing Islam. Is it our place to say they're not Muslim? No. Even though they are not following the teachings of Islam and the Quran, we don't have the right of saying that they aren't Muslim. That's between him/her and God.