Misconceptions about Islam:

[HaLi8993]

There are many misconceptions that exist within the field of Islam one being the topic of women. Unfortunately due to ignorance and lack of knowledge of some people and the ever growing propaganda and Islamaphobia that exist today, including the ever growing media agenda’s that govern the way people think and act, women are deemed as being unequal to men in Islam.

We are all aware that women and men are not alike so I don’t understand when someone makes the statement that Islam should practice equality, what do you mean by equality??? This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when it is attributed to the religion to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, people start to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same. We are all aware that the Male is not like the female.

God says in the Quran:

“And the male is not like the female�[Quran Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.

In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from God and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant people see it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly refuses to accept reality.

But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of God. “Should not He who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All Aware (of everything)� [Quran al-Mulk 67:14 ]

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "You did. You said that people say they are Muslim, but are not. Now you're saying that only God knows? Which is it, do you know, or only God? The abbreviation is people who say they are muslims. I got tired of typing it out. Can I just call them "Muslims?" "

ANSWER: No, I said just because people say they are Muslim meaning by "name" does not mean they are followers of the true teachings of Islam, Only God knows, however if they are knowledgable and are not ignorant Muslims and through their actions it becomes clear that they have left the folds of Islam and they admit to such things then one could say such people would not be considered as Muslim. You have to take it for what it is, unless proven otherwise, but at the end of the day the ultimate decision as to the fate of that person lies in the hands of God, as we do not know what is in the heart.

QUOTE: "Oh really, that's a fact? O.K., now demonstrate that to be a fact. Try not to use circular reasoning or special pleading, and maintain elementary logic."

ANSWER: Look around you.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "I keep telling you, it is not enough to just announce your views. This is a debate site. It is your job to show that this is the case."

ANSWER: What would you like to know?? 

You seem to be suffering under the delusion that the purpose of this forum is for you to teach us things. This is a debate forum. Its purpose is debate. When you make an assertion, we don't just blindly accept it. You have to make an argument to persuade us that is the case. In this instance, you asserted that I do not understand Islam. I assert that I understand it better than you. It is on you to show that in fact I do not understand Islam.

QUOTE: "Because it is barbaric and harmful. Because young girls have acid thrown on their faces, and writers have to live in hiding. Because people are being killed for their beliefs. Because women are living in abject subjugation. Because "Violence erupted again on Monday as militants carried out suicide attacks on two police headquarters, as well as assaults that left 20 people dead — three police officers, an Afghan prosecutor, two children and 14 attackers, according to officials. At least 60 people were wounded." Because devout Muslims burned down buildings and killed innocent people over some cartoons they didn't like. I could go on and on. But most important to me is this: It is wrong."

ANSWER: What do you think is barbaric and harmful?, what are you referring too? Can you show me how Islam accepts or promotes acid throwing, your the one making this claim so it would only be logical to forward your proof.

Sure, easy. 100% of the people who did these things are Muslims, and 100% of them do them because they are Muslim, based on their understanding of how best to follow Islam. Do you disagree?

Again you need to provide evidence that Islam accepts such things. If we want to talk about the atrocities that America have committed we can easy do this also

. Well, try this. When thousands of Muslims riot and burn down embassies and beat innocent Belgians to death, were they prosecuted? Did their Imams declare fatwas against them? Were they shunned by other Muslims? Or in fact was the entire outbreak orchestrated by and fanned into flames by Muslim clerics?

QUOTE: "I have the right to speak the truth as I see it, and so do you. You do not have, and should not have, the right to kill me over it. That is not self-defence; it's repression and it's wrong. Is it Islamic?"

ANSWER: If we judge Islam according to what you see, this would be a great injustice especially without understanding Islam or studying it's rulings.

We should not judge Islam by the actions of Muslims attempting to live in Islam? Or by the violent and confusing verses in the qu'ran? Or the bizarre and contradictory hadith? What then should we judge it by, your personal fantasy of an idealized idea that has never existed?

QUOTE: "I beg of you, think. This is a debate forum. I am an atheist. Do you really think that announcing as if it was fact that "they are God's laws" is an effective argument. 

Now it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that this is true. Good luck with that"

ANSWER: If you want to debate you need to forward proof for you claims first, so that I can use evidence against you from my sources, do you think it's an effective argument by claiming that the laws of God are bad without any evidence to suggest this claim?,  how am I meant to demonstrate this is not true without knowing what you are referring too?

No, HaLi, you made an assertion, and the burden is on you to support it. So feel free to demonstrate first that God exists, and second that He decided to communicate with people by revealing his will to a single illiterate Arab tribesman in the 6th century. Good luck with that.

QUOTE: "It should be up to the woman how she wants to dress. If you feel like wearing a tent, feel free. If I do not, I should also be free, and should be neither beaten nor raped should I choose to do so."

ANSWER:  It is up to her if she wishes not to follow the laws of God, that's your choice you don't believe in God why would you want to cover up? Where does Islam say you can beat and rape a girl for not covering.

Well, why do you think poor Muslim women get beaten for daring to choose their own clothing? It doesn't happen here in Denver, but it does happen in Muslim countries. Why do you think that is?

QUOTE: ". So then among Muslim men, women can wear what they like, go out in public, and have any job she likes?"

ANSWER: No Certainly not! Men also cannot do these things.

Muslim men can't leave their house when they like, without bringing their mothers or wives with them? Really? Tell me more about that.

QUOTE: "Yes, we've gone over that. Islam is sexist. I think we can agree on that and move on."

ANSWER: Nice Try!

thank you.

QUOTE: "NO, the qu'ran is not evidence, it's gibberish.You do realize that you contradicted yourself again, right? First you said that women were not as intelligent or capable, and then that they are. Which is it?"

ANSWER: That's your opinion, where did I say they are not intellectual??

You said that it's not appropriate for women to hold managerial or leadership jobs, because they are not as capable or intelligent as men. Do you need me to go back and quote your post?

[Autodidact]

@ Actodidact

QUOTE: "Yes, well, as I said, if you are going to read it to mean something other than what it says, you may as well throw it out the window. Carpets are flat, duh, not spherical."

ANSWER: It's not talking about the earth being flat, Your logic doesn't make sense, besides the earth is spread out wide and flat on our level.

Yes, it is, and that is why, to an uneducated Arab tribesman of the 6th century, it looks flat, like a carpet. But to an educated person, who knows science, or to God, if He existed and bothered communicating with us, it doesn't look like a carpet, but like a marble. Since poor Muhammad didn't know this, he described it, wrongly, based on what it looked like to him. And that is one of the many ways we know for sure that the qu'ran is nothing but Muhammad's delusions, hallucinations, dictates and hopes.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Wow, I wonder why you feel the need to be so evasive. My understanding of slavery is the definition of slavery, which is that one person owns another. In Islam, is it permitted to own slaves? Yes, or no? 

As for how actual Muslims actually treat their actual slaves, do you really want me to cover that?"

ANSWER: As mentioned before your understanding of slavery is incorrect, I want to ask you this, when America went into Afghanistan and placed innocent men in Guantanamo Bay that are still there without placing them on trial, who do you think owns them?? Do you consider this as one person owning another? Is this permitted?? 

My understanding of slavery is the definition of slavery. Using that definition, is slavery permitted in Islam, yes or no?

QUOTE: "Do you want more? Because I can produce reams of facts on how actual Muslims capture, maim, rape, sell and oppress their actual slaves, today. 

And you wonder why I criticize Islam? 

Tell you what. You be my slave, o.k.? I have some windows that need washing. 

I may have to bow out of this conversation. When people start defending slavery, it makes me sick, frankly"

ANSWER: I'm glad you posted that, cause it's just another example of how these crimes are committed in the name of "tradition" and not Islam. I am really not interested in the crimes people commit, what I'm concerned about is the religion of Islam, are you going to prove to me Islam accepts such things?, or do you want to talk about the sex slaves of Joseph Kony, or how women are gang raped, beaten, drugged and kidnapped in America or perhaps the sex slaves that are tortured in Cambodia. 

Is slavery permiited in Islam?

Are Muslims allowed to own other people as property?

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "I realize, that you're Muslim, but please, try to make some sense. Please follow along: 

Slavery means that one person owns another as property, can be bought and sold, forced to work, and does not have the right of self-determination. That is what the word slavery means. So, using that definition, not some other definition, but that one, the actual one, does Islam permit slavery, or not? Please answer yes or no"

ANSWER: I have already answered this, what don't you get??[/qutoe] Your answers contradicted each other and confused me. Could you just give me a yes or no? Using this definition, is slavery permitted in Islam? Thanks.

QUOTE: "Yes, I know that was the custom in that barbaric time and place when Islam was invented. Meanwhile, the modern, civilized world has advanced beyond that level of barbarism that remains alive in the Muslim world"

ANSWER: Moved on?? Islam is not barbaric nor is it invented, we don't change the laws of God, they remain as is, yes this is why the modern civilized world tortures its prisoners of war instead, this is not barbaric??, give me one example in Islam that states we can torture prisoners of war just one. Who could forget the modern civilized world when prisoners of war in Abu Ghraib were tortured these sort of barbaric acts can just get swept under to carpet?? They were treated worse than animals and here you are talking about slavery in Islam that treats the prisoners of war with humility, respect, and decency, you have definitely got the wrong understand of reality. 

Does Islam allow slavery?

QUOTE: "It allows slavery to be unlawful? Slavery is not allowed? Or it is. 

You do realize that all the non-Muslims reading this thread are rolling on the floor laughing at your contradictions and evasions, right? "

ANSWER: Islam does not allow unlawful slavery, what is the contradiction? 

Does Islam allow any slavery?

QUOTE: "Except that it does?  

This is just plain silly. The rights of a slave are not equal to those of a free man. A free man OWNS a slave. The slave is property. The owner can sell the slave or give him as a gift, and the slave has no say in the matter.  

Your utter confusion on this simple point, to the point where you are speaking gibberish, is telling us all we need to know, thank you" 

In Islam, is slavery permitted? 

There is no such thing as just and merciful slavery, any more than there is such a thing as a non-violent beating. 

I find your ability to believe contradictions remarkable. Is this the result of an Islamic education? Please clear up my misconceptions. I thought Muslims were capable of the most elementary logic, such as that A cannot be not-A."

ANSWER: There is no such thing as a just and merciful slavery according to your understanding of slavery, Islam is not like this.

Does Islam allow slavery?

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "In your mind. 

Are we done with slavery, and ready to move on to violence, terrorism and conquest in Islam? Because you said you wanted to talk about slavery. At this point, I don't know if Muslims are allowed to own slaves or not. Can you clear up my misconception? Thanks."

ANSWER: We can move on to what ever you would like clarified, what do you think?? 

I think that Islam allows slavery, but your answers confuse me. In your view, does Islam allow slavery?

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "There are, and they are the happiest Muslims in the world. Muslims living in Muslim countries are the most miserable. That is why Muslims flee Muslim countries to take refuge in western democracies."

ANSWER: If Islam exists in Western countries then why do we not find these crimes there if where ever we find Muslims we find these things. 

Because in secular Western democracies, the conditions that encourage happiness prevail: freedom, prosperity, health, education. They enjoy the benefits of the secular democracies they oppose. If they hate secular democracy, why do they not stay in the Muslim countries they are born in?

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "You seem to be suffering under the delusion that the purpose of this forum is for you to teach us things. This is a debate forum. Its purpose is debate. When you make an assertion, we don't just blindly accept it. You have to make an argument to persuade us that is the case. In this instance, you asserted that I do not understand Islam. I assert that I understand it better than you. It is on you to show that in fact I do not understand Islam"

ANSWER: I'm here to teach you about your misconceptions about Islam through debate, you seem think that I know what your talking about, what do you think you know better?? Provide evidence and we will debate on the topic at hand.

QUOTE: "Sure, easy. 100% of the people who did these things are Muslims, and 100% of them do them because they are Muslim, based on their understanding of how best to follow Islam. Do you disagree?"

ANSWER:  I'm still waiting to see evidence for your statements.

QUOTE: ". Well, try this. When thousands of Muslims riot and burn down embassies and beat innocent Belgians to death, were they prosecuted? Did their Imams declare fatwas against them? Were they shunned by other Muslims? Or in fact was the entire outbreak orchestrated by and fanned into flames by Muslim clerics?"

ANSWER: So again where in Islam does it accept such actions?? How do you know there was no fatwa? Again if we were to discuss the crimes that occurred a few months ago we could easily discuss the tens of thousands gathered in front of the Greek parliament in Athens to protest, angry gangs looted stores and torched buildings,while rioters reportedly fought back with firebombs and petrol bomb explosions, buildings were engulfed in flames, this was the worst violence that Athens has seen in months. 

QUOTE: "We should not judge Islam by the actions of Muslims attempting to live in Islam? Or by the violent and confusing verses in the qu'ran? Or the bizarre and contradictory hadith? What then should we judge it by, your personal fantasy of an idealized idea that has never existed?"

ANSWER: You can start by judging it by the evidence provided, look into History you will realize it did exist.

QUOTE: "No, HaLi, you made an assertion, and the burden is on you to support it. So feel free to demonstrate first that God exists, and second that He decided to communicate with people by revealing his will to a single illiterate Arab tribesman in the 6th century. Good luck with that"

ANSWER: What assertion are you talking about? Have you read my other thread "Why God created us", It's very simple God does what he wills and choses who he wants to convey the Message.

QUOTE: "Well, why do you think poor Muslim women get beaten for daring to choose their own clothing? It doesn't happen here in Denver, but it does happen in Muslim countries. Why do you think that is?"

ANSWER: I'm not sure maybe because they are following their traditions and cultural practices, so your telling me women are not beaten in Western countries? 3 out of every 5 women have been abused at least once by their husbands in America. Moreover wife beating occurs in Judaism also. 

QUOTE: "Muslim men can't leave their house when they like, without bringing their mothers or wives with them? Really? Tell me more about that"

ANSWER: We are not talking about leaving the house when they like, we are talking about the dress, Muslim men cannot wear what they want when they go out in public. 

QUOTE: "thank you"

ANSWER: You welcome lol

QUOTE: "You said that it's not appropriate for women to hold managerial or leadership jobs, because they are not as capable or intelligent as men. Do you need me to go back and quote your post?"

ANSWER: That does not mean they are not intellectual that means that men are more suitable for these positions. I would like it of you did that.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Yes, it is, and that is why, to an uneducated Arab tribesman of the 6th century, it looks flat, like a carpet. But to an educated person, who knows science, or to God, if He existed and bothered communicating with us, it doesn't look like a carpet, but like a marble. Since poor Muhammad didn't know this, he described it, wrongly, based on what it looked like to him. And that is one of the many ways we know for sure that the qu'ran is nothing but Muhammad's delusions, hallucinations, dictates and hopes."

ANSWER: The Quran confirmed that the earth is round way before scientists could have known this: God says:

Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests.
Which then of the bounties of thy Lord will you deny?

(The Noble Quran, 55:17-18)

In the verse, Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests, there is sure evidence that the earth is round because two Easts and two Wests can come about only when the earth is round, for when the sun rises over one region it sets in another, and when it sets in one sphere it rises in another. Thus the actuality of two Easts and two Wests can clearly be seen.

Early Muslim Consensus refuted the idea that the earth was flat, God says:

And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33).  

Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel, furthermore Ibn Taymiyah said the word falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "My understanding of slavery is the definition of slavery. Using that definition, is slavery permitted in Islam, yes or no?"

ANSWER: Are you going to answer my questions first?

QUOTE: "Is slavery permiited in Islam? 

Are Muslims allowed to own other people as property?"

ANSWER: Why are you changing the topic?? I have already answered this.