Misconceptions about Islam:

[HaLi8993]

There are many misconceptions that exist within the field of Islam one being the topic of women. Unfortunately due to ignorance and lack of knowledge of some people and the ever growing propaganda and Islamaphobia that exist today, including the ever growing media agenda’s that govern the way people think and act, women are deemed as being unequal to men in Islam.

We are all aware that women and men are not alike so I don’t understand when someone makes the statement that Islam should practice equality, what do you mean by equality??? This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when it is attributed to the religion to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, people start to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same. We are all aware that the Male is not like the female.

God says in the Quran:

“And the male is not like the female�[Quran Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.

In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from God and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant people see it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly refuses to accept reality.

But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of God. “Should not He who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All Aware (of everything)� [Quran al-Mulk 67:14 ]

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Does Islam allow slavery?"

ANSWER: Yes, but not your understanding of slavery.

QUOTE: "Does Islam allow any slavery?"

ANSWER: No, there is only one type of slavery in Islam and that is the Islamic slavery not your western understanding of slavery.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "I think that Islam allows slavery, but your answers confuse me. In your view, does Islam allow slavery?"

ANSWER: Yes it does, what don't you get, slavery in Islam is not the slavery you are thinking of as proven.

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Because in secular Western democracies, the conditions that encourage happiness prevail: freedom, prosperity, health, education. They enjoy the benefits of the secular democracies they oppose. If they hate secular democracy, why do they not stay in the Muslim countries they are born in?"

ANSWER: You said where ever there are Muslims we find these things (crimes), obviously this is not true then is it?, because they feel they are forced to migrate due to conditions they live in.

[hERICtic]

ANSWER: The Quran confirmed that the earth is round way before scientists could have known this: God says:

Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests.
Which then of the bounties of thy Lord will you deny?

(The Noble Quran, 55:17-18)

In the verse, Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests, there is sure evidence that the earth is round because two Easts and two Wests can come about only when the earth is round, for when the sun rises over one region it sets in another, and when it sets in one sphere it rises in another. Thus the actuality of two Easts and two Wests can clearly be seen.

Early Muslim Consensus refuted the idea that the earth was flat, God says:

And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33).  

Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel, furthermore Ibn Taymiyah said the word falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round.

Incorrect. There isnt any verse in the entire Quran that directly state the earth is round. Not one actually states this. The verses that the Quran uses either directly state its flat or you are very ambiguous. You claim the Quran is amazing, yet every time a verse is used to show this, its very murky or says something entirely different.

Here is ONE example of many that show the earth is flat according to the Quran.

"On that day we shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch..." (see also 20:104-107).

How much more clear can this be?

As for your scripture claiming it shows the earth is round. Show me one verse in the entire Quran that states the earth moves. Just one. You cant. Yet it clearly states the sun and moon move in an orbit. Why doesnt it mention the earth moves? Now imagine you are looking up, what would you notice of the sun and moon? They both appear to move AROUND the earth. Yet in reality, its the earth that moves around the sun. The orbit yes is round, but it says nothing of the earth being round.

. Sura 36:40


"it is not permitted to the sun to catch up the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day, each just swims along in its own orbit"

This makes perfect sense if the Quran was describing the sun and moon moving aroud the earth. The context is day and night, how its formed. The sun comes, the moon follows. But notice the key point, "to catch up". In other words, this is describing perfectly the two bodies moving in orbit around the earth. In reality, the moon goes around the earth, the sun does not.

Again, these verses describe perfectly how it would appear to someone who did NOT know how the how it worked.

As for the two easts and two wests, its also a description of a flat earth. Imagine a flat earth. If you stand on one side of the earth, you would have two easts, left and right of you. If you were on the opposite side of the earth, you would have two wests, to the right and left of you. North would be up towards the heavens, south down.

The bottom line is this. The two verses you gave do not prove a round earth. Also, a round earth was already known by the time this was written. Mohammed had interaction with many people in his lifetime, being a trader. Such knowledge IF the Quran stated it, shows no miracle at all.

I'm sure I can easily debunk every suppose miracle in the Quran. Either such knowledge was already known or the verses you would use are so ambiguous that any meaning can be derived from them. If the Quran is so amazing, it should make claims no one else could possibly known and to be 100% accurate and clear.

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: I'm not sure maybe because they are following their traditions and cultural practices, so your telling me women are not beaten in Western countries? 3 out of every 5 women have been abused at least once by their husbands in America. Moreover wife beating occurs in Judaism also. 

The point isn't about how many wife beatings occur, the point is following a holy book with a god who condones and encourages wife beating.

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: The Quran confirmed that the earth is round way before scientists could have known this: God says:

Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests.
Which then of the bounties of thy Lord will you deny?

(The Noble Quran, 55:17-18)

Ridiculous, that verse says absolutely nothing about the earth being round.

In the verse, Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests, there is sure evidence that the earth is round because two Easts and two Wests can come about only when the earth is round, for when the sun rises over one region it sets in another, and when it sets in one sphere it rises in another. Thus the actuality of two Easts and two Wests can clearly be seen.

LOL! Hilarious explanation. Where does it say anything about the sun rising or setting in a sphere.

Amazing dishonesty.

Early Muslim Consensus refuted the idea that the earth was flat, God says:

And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33).

Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel, furthermore Ibn Taymiyah said the word falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round.

That verse talks about the sun and moon floating like that of a spinning wheel, which does not indicate anything about the earth being round flat or rectangular.

You're just making up stuff that is not related. More Islamic propaganda.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "You seem to be suffering under the delusion that the purpose of this forum is for you to teach us things. This is a debate forum. Its purpose is debate. When you make an assertion, we don't just blindly accept it. You have to make an argument to persuade us that is the case. In this instance, you asserted that I do not understand Islam. I assert that I understand it better than you. It is on you to show that in fact I do not understand Islam"

ANSWER: I'm here to teach you about your misconceptions about Islam through debate, you seem think that I know what your talking about, what do you think you know better?? Provide evidence and we will debate on the topic at hand.

That's what I'm doing. Read back through the thread and see how much evidence I have provided for everything I have said.

QUOTE: "Sure, easy. 100% of the people who did these things are Muslims, and 100% of them do them because they are Muslim, based on their understanding of how best to follow Islam. Do you disagree?"

ANSWER:  I'm still waiting to see evidence for your statements.

Do you disagree with any of them?

QUOTE: ". Well, try this. When thousands of Muslims riot and burn down embassies and beat innocent Belgians to death, were they prosecuted? Did their Imams declare fatwas against them? Were they shunned by other Muslims? Or in fact was the entire outbreak orchestrated by and fanned into flames by Muslim clerics?"

ANSWER: So again where in Islam does it accept such actions?? How do you know there was no fatwa?

Oh there were lots of fatwas. Here are a few of them:

A Pakistani cleric announced a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew the Prophet Muhammad caricatures, as thousands rallied across the country Friday and authorities arrested scores of protesters.

Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi, prayer leader at the historic Mohabat Khan mosque:
"This is a unanimous decision of by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophet deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize,"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185202,00.html

on January 29, a Muslim Cleric in the Iraqi city of Mosul issued a fatwa stating, "Expel the Crusaders and infidels from the streets, schools, and institutions because they have offended the person of the prophet."[97] It has been reported that Muslim students beat up a Christian student at Mosul University in response to the fatwa on the same day.[97] On February 2, some Palestinians in the West Bank handed out a leaflet signed by Islamic Jihad stating, "Churches in Gaza could come under attack". [wiki]

Now I realize that you have a new, innovative interpretaton of Islam, unique to you, that is not followed by most Muslims, and you are certainly entitled to it. You are not entitled to simply declare that it is the one True Islam, and all the other Muslims are wrong.

I encourage you, however, to tell them that, in hopes it will reduce these kinds of atrocities in future. That is, if you dare.

Again if we were to discuss the crimes that occurred a few months ago we could easily discuss the tens of thousands gathered in front of the Greek parliament in Athens to protest, angry gangs looted stores and torched buildings,while rioters reportedly fought back with firebombs and petrol bomb explosions, buildings were engulfed in flames, this was the worst violence that Athens has seen in months. 

Do you honestly think this "But Mommy, Johnnie does it toooo..." argument is effective? I find it one of the most infantile "arguments" that Muslims use. Wrong is wrong, Johnnie, no matter how many other children do it.

QUOTE: "We should not judge Islam by the actions of Muslims attempting to live in Islam? Or by the violent and confusing verses in the qu'ran? Or the bizarre and contradictory hadith? What then should we judge it by, your personal fantasy of an idealized idea that has never existed?"

ANSWER: You can start by judging it by the evidence provided, look into History you will realize it did exist.

OK, are you ready to start discussing history then? I think you'll find it an almost unending saga of conquest and slavery.

QUOTE: "No, HaLi, you made an assertion, and the burden is on you to support it. So feel free to demonstrate first that God exists, and second that He decided to communicate with people by revealing his will to a single illiterate Arab tribesman in the 6th century. Good luck with that"

ANSWER: What assertion are you talking about? Have you read my other thread "Why God created us", It's very simple God does what he wills and choses who he wants to convey the Message.

Yes, it's simple and it's wrong. Now, if you want to demonstrate that God exists, and chose a single pedophile slave-owning caravan raider to convey His truth to, go for it.

QUOTE: "Well, why do you think poor Muslim women get beaten for daring to choose their own clothing? It doesn't happen here in Denver, but it does happen in Muslim countries. Why do you think that is?"

ANSWER: I'm not sure maybe because they are following their traditions and cultural practices, so your telling me women are not beaten in Western countries? 3 out of every 5 women have been abused at least once by their husbands in America. Moreover wife beating occurs in Judaism also. 

I'm saying that I can go out my front door wearing whatever I please, and I will not suffer any consequence for doing so. That is because I do not live in a Muslim country, where I would not have that freedom. Do you disagree?

QUOTE: "Muslim men can't leave their house when they like, without bringing their mothers or wives with them? Really? Tell me more about that"

ANSWER: We are not talking about leaving the house when they like, we are talking about the dress, Muslim men cannot wear what they want when they go out in public.

 Oh, I see, the dress. Well, it's true, Islam oppresses both sexes, but being a patriarchal, sexist religion, of course women always get the worst of it.

QUOTE: "You said that it's not appropriate for women to hold managerial or leadership jobs, because they are not as capable or intelligent as men. Do you need me to go back and quote your post?"

ANSWER: That does not mean they are not intellectual that means that men are more suitable for these positions. I would like it of you did that.

And why exactly are women not as suitable for these positions?
Maybe you should ask the CEOs of IBM, PepsiCo, WellPoint, Kraft Foods, and many more...all of them women. Needless to say none of them are Muslim.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Yes, it is, and that is why, to an uneducated Arab tribesman of the 6th century, it looks flat, like a carpet. But to an educated person, who knows science, or to God, if He existed and bothered communicating with us, it doesn't look like a carpet, but like a marble. Since poor Muhammad didn't know this, he described it, wrongly, based on what it looked like to him. And that is one of the many ways we know for sure that the qu'ran is nothing but Muhammad's delusions, hallucinations, dictates and hopes."

ANSWER: The Quran confirmed that the earth is round way before scientists could have known this: God says:

Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests.
Which then of the bounties of thy Lord will you deny?

(The Noble Quran, 55:17-18)

In the verse, Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests, there is sure evidence that the earth is round because two Easts and two Wests can come about only when the earth is round, for when the sun rises over one region it sets in another, and when it sets in one sphere it rises in another. Thus the actuality of two Easts and two Wests can clearly be seen.

That's hilarious. It makes no sense at all. That's really cute. From two wests and two easts, which there aren't, by the way, no matter how round the earth is, you get that the earth is round? Wow, that's really creative.

Early Muslim Consensus refuted the idea that the earth was flat, God says:

And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33).  

You do realize that the word "earth" does not appear in that sentence, right? That's so desperate.

Why can't Muslims scholars just admit the obvious? Muhammad thought the earth was flat, like a carpet. It isn't.

I suppose using this style of exegesis I could show that Winnie the Pooh is perfect, beautiful, and free of contradictions. You just make it mean whatever you want it to. In that case, why bother with it at all?

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "My understanding of slavery is the definition of slavery. Using that definition, is slavery permitted in Islam, yes or no?"

ANSWER: Are you going to answer my questions first?

What question? I can't believe how evasive you are. It's downright rude, and makes it obvious that you don't want to deal with this issue.

QUOTE: "Is slavery permiited in Islam? 

Are Muslims allowed to own other people as property?"

ANSWER: Why are you changing the topic?? I have already answered this.

Changing the topic?! That's a good one. This is the same simple question I've been asking for 5 pages, and yes, you have answered it, giving contradictory and confusing answers. So, just to clear up any confusion, yes or not, is slavery Islamic?

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "Does Islam allow slavery?"

ANSWER: Yes, but not your understanding of slavery.

QUOTE: "Does Islam allow any slavery?"

ANSWER: No, there is only one type of slavery in Islam and that is the Islamic slavery not your western understanding of slavery.

Look at your answers. I asked you twice. The first time you said yes, the second time you said no. Any wonder why I'm confused?

Is it slavery under the definition from wiki that I provided, where one person owns another, can sell that person or give him away, and can make him work?