Isa--Jesus

[unicorn]

I know many Christians are confused about their religion (e.g. believing that salvation can be earned through works rather than being a gift), so when I say this, I mean no disrespect, but are many Muslims confused about their religion? I thought that Islam expressed that Jesus did not rise from the dead and was not the Messiah/Son of God. But, I have read some articles lately that have said otherwise:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/quran-jesus.html

http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/book/b06.htm

[Chimp]

My understanding on this is that Jesus is accepted as a prophet of God,
but not the Son of God. I know there are a couple of Muslims on the
forums, maybe they'd give a more authoritative description. My own
reading of the Koran is limited (It's in a pile of to-read books that just
seems to keep growing).

[Qazwa]

I know many Christians are confused about their religion (e.g. believing that salvation can be earned through works rather than being a gift), so when I say this, I mean no disrespect, but are many Muslims confused about their religion? I thought that Islam expressed that Jesus did not rise from the dead and was not the Messiah/Son of God. But, I have read some articles lately that have said otherwise:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/quran-jesus.html

http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/book/b06.htm

Peace and blessings be to you Unicorn,

Muslims believe about Jesus(peace be upon him) what our Holy Qur'an tells us.

In the Qur'an chapter 3, al Imran, verse 55.....

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; and I will make those who follow thee superior To those who reject faith".

We also believe he(peace be upon him) was a Messiah.

Chapter 3 verse 49 in the Qur'an it says:

"and appoint him A messenger to the Children Of Isreal.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) was a Son of God.

We get this from the Holy Qur'an as well. It is mentioned in many verses but the one that sums it up best is chapter 112. al Ikhlas.

Say: He is God. The One and Only. God the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, Nor was He begotten, and there is none like unto him"

I can understand Christians being confused about how to get to heaven, Some say that the belief that Jesus(peace be upon him) died on the cross was a payment for thier sins.
But in Matthew chapter 19: verse 16ish Jesus(peace be upon him) says when asked "what good thing shall I do that I mat have eternal life?" Jesus(peace be upon him) answers by telling him "thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear fasle witness, 19: Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Basicly the 10 comandments. Was Jesus(peace be upon him) also confused about his religion?

Then to add to the confusion of the Christians you have James saying in his book chapter 2 verse 20 "But wilt thou know vain man that faith without works is dead".

Was James confused too?

I dont remember seeing a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) claiming that his blood would wash anybodys sins away. Can you show me? Im not well versed in the Bible. I am a student of it.

Peace to you,

Qazwa

[AlAyeti]

Muslims believe about Jesus(peace be upon him) what our Holy Qur'an tells us.

In the Qur'an chapter 3, al Imran, verse 55.....

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; and I will make those who follow thee superior To those who reject faith".

Does this include behaeding those that want to follow Christ as God? First off we should establish that people have the right to choose or not to choose Christ or Allah without a fatwa of sermon violence against them.

We also believe he(peace be upon him) was a Messiah.

Chapter 3 verse 49 in the Qur'an it says:

"and appoint him A messenger to the Children Of Isreal.

But the same angel that spoke to Mary told her that Jesus would be called "God is with us." That is "Immanuel."

Muslims do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) was a Son of God.

Or, "The" Son of God.

We get this from the Holy Qur'an as well. It is mentioned in many verses but the one that sums it up best is chapter 112. al Ikhlas.

Say: He is God. The One and Only. God the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, Nor was He begotten, and there is none like unto him"

But this would mean that the "people of the book" got a different message from the "same" angel that brought the Koran to Mohammad.

I can understand Christians being confused about how to get to heaven, Some say that the belief that Jesus(peace be upon him) died on the cross was a payment for thier sins.

"Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world."

But in Matthew chapter 19: verse 16ish Jesus(peace be upon him) says when asked "what good thing shall I do that I mat have eternal life?" Jesus(peace be upon him) answers by telling him "thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear fasle witness, 19: Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Basicly the 10 comandments. Was Jesus(peace be upon him) also confused about his religion?

Well, the text in context, seems to be about a rich person that was told to follow the Hebrew/Israel laws of the Ten Commandments, but then! sell all he had and give it away. He didn't want to and Jesus' followers asked Him "Then Lord who can be saved?" Christ replied, "What is impossible for men is possible with God."

Then to add to the confusion of the Christians you have James saying in his book chapter 2 verse 20 "But wilt thou know vain man that faith without works is dead".

Was James confused too?

James was referring to people that think they can sit back oir sit by and watch other people do either nothing or bad things. Christians claim the practice "a religion of peace" but hurt or oppress others that do not believe as they do. You would think that letting God show people the way would be the best thing for followers of god to do. "Faith" without works" is dead. Especially when a proponent of a religion harms those that are not fellow-believers.

I dont remember seeing a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) claiming that his blood would wash anybodys sins away. Can you show me? Im not well versed in the Bible. I am a student of it.

This one might work; "No one come to the Father except by Me." Or, "I and the Father are One."

Jesus said "I know the father." "He is the One you say is your God.

Holding up the cup He said: "This cup is is the new covenant between God and His people- an agreement confirmed with my blood which is poured out as a sacrifice for you." Luke 22:20

Also in Luke, from the mouth of Gabriel! "Don't be afraid Mary, said the angel, "for you have found favor with God." You will conceive and give birth to a Son and will name him "Yeshua." He will be very great and will be called the Son of The Most High! The Lord will give Him the throne of His ancestor David. And He will reign over Israel forever; His kingdom will never end." Luke 1:30-33.

[Qazwa]

Muslims believe about Jesus(peace be upon him) what our Holy Qur'an tells us.

In the Qur'an chapter 3, al Imran, verse 55.....

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; and I will make those who follow thee superior To those who reject faith".

Does this include behaeding those that want to follow Christ as God? First off we should establish that people have the right to choose or not to choose Christ or Allah without a fatwa of sermon violence against them.

We also believe he(peace be upon him) was a Messiah.

Chapter 3 verse 49 in the Qur'an it says:

"and appoint him A messenger to the Children Of Isreal.

But the same angel that spoke to Mary told her that Jesus would be called "God is with us." That is "Immanuel."

Muslims do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) was a Son of God.

Or, "The" Son of God.

We get this from the Holy Qur'an as well. It is mentioned in many verses but the one that sums it up best is chapter 112. al Ikhlas.

Say: He is God. The One and Only. God the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, Nor was He begotten, and there is none like unto him"

But this would mean that the "people of the book" got a different message from the "same" angel that brought the Koran to Mohammad.

I can understand Christians being confused about how to get to heaven, Some say that the belief that Jesus(peace be upon him) died on the cross was a payment for thier sins.

"Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world."

But in Matthew chapter 19: verse 16ish Jesus(peace be upon him) says when asked "what good thing shall I do that I mat have eternal life?" Jesus(peace be upon him) answers by telling him "thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear fasle witness, 19: Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Basicly the 10 comandments. Was Jesus(peace be upon him) also confused about his religion?

Well, the text in context, seems to be about a rich person that was told to follow the Hebrew/Israel laws of the Ten Commandments, but then! sell all he had and give it away. He didn't want to and Jesus' followers asked Him "Then Lord who can be saved?" Christ replied, "What is impossible for men is possible with God."

Then to add to the confusion of the Christians you have James saying in his book chapter 2 verse 20 "But wilt thou know vain man that faith without works is dead".

Was James confused too?

James was referring to people that think they can sit back oir sit by and watch other people do either nothing or bad things. Christians claim the practice "a religion of peace" but hurt or oppress others that do not believe as they do. You would think that letting God show people the way would be the best thing for followers of god to do. "Faith" without works" is dead. Especially when a proponent of a religion harms those that are not fellow-believers.

I dont remember seeing a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) claiming that his blood would wash anybodys sins away. Can you show me? Im not well versed in the Bible. I am a student of it.

This one might work; "No one come to the Father except by Me." Or, "I and the Father are One."

Jesus said "I know the father." "He is the One you say is your God.

Holding up the cup He said: "This cup is is the new covenant between God and His people- an agreement confirmed with my blood which is poured out as a sacrifice for you." Luke 22:20

Also in Luke, from the mouth of Gabriel! "Don't be afraid Mary, said the angel, "for you have found favor with God." You will conceive and give birth to a Son and will name him "Yeshua." He will be very great and will be called the Son of The Most High! The Lord will give Him the throne of His ancestor David. And He will reign over Israel forever; His kingdom will never end." Luke 1:30-33.

Peace to you,

No.
Beheading is not in order for those who associate partners with God according to Islamic law or anyother law that I know of.
Those who join partners with God and die doing so with knowledge that this is wrong (heanceforth this includes you) will face the punishment from God in hellfire. This is worse than a beheading.

"Immanuel" in not mentioned in the Qu'ran. To call a person "God" is considered a form of idol worship. Its forbidden in Islam to worship any other than God and a sin to join partners with him. We dont know what angel told Mary(ra) about "Emmanuel" if it were an angel or an evil spirit since we have no idea who wrote the chapter of Matthew so we can not varify its authentisity.

The people of the book who's messengers are Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them) recieved a message from God. We dont know that Gabreal spoke to Jesus or Moses. We know God spoke to Moses directly. When the Angel Gabreal revieled his message from God to Muhammad(peace be upon him) it was a clarification of the previous messages so the details may differ. God did not give the exact same message word for word to Jesus(peace be upon him) as he did Moses(peace be upon him). Why not? Because people would think it is simply a copy from a previous message and not a new revelation. What we watch for is contradictions. These are the red flags that tell us somebody is tinkering with scripture. The conflicts you see between the Qur'an and bible are the result of fabrications, additions and human writings in what is now published in the holy bibles.

"behold the lam of God takes away the sins of the world"

I dont know what chapter you got that from but it sounds like Paul. If Jesus(peace be upon him) could take away the sins of the world (he can not) what makes you think he had to be crucified to do this? Especialy since he said he would not die. Still no proof that blood scarifice takes away sin. This is a man made idea.

You wrote a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) that I like.......
"What is impossable with men is possable with God" Nice! You are helping me out hear. So man can not take away the sins of each other. Very good! Nither could Jesus(peace be upon him).

"Faith without works is dead" We agree on this point. As a Muslim I submitt myself to the will of God. That means my body, sole and actions. This is what Jesus(peace be upon him) did in the garden. I see a lot of good works by Christians in the world today and it tends to make me believe they are not led by satan. Although they tend to deemphasise this for some reason and place the focous on belief only.

Jesus(peace be upon him) said "no one comes to the father but threw me"
Completly true at the time he uttered it and now it is partly true. In Islam if a person rejects *any* of the messengers he/she is considered a non-believer. So therefore is a person were to accept Jesus(peace be upon him) and reject John the baptist (peace be upon him) have they accepted Christ (peace be upon him)? I say no. To accept Christ(peace be upon him) we must also accept what he said. Right? Think about it. To reject the messenger is to reject God. Jesus(peace be upon him) cautions us strongly. I think out of love.

"I and the father are one"

Inconclusive. This can mean that Jesus(peace be upon him) and the father were in agreement. Lets be careful not to read too far into this.

Luke 1:30-33.

Jesus(peace be upon him) is talking about his blood. Thanks. I think that was what I was looking for. But Jesus says his blood. He is contradicting himself something afull if he claimed he would die because in Matthew 12:40 he said he would *not* die like Jonah(peace be upon him).

Gabriel was talking to Marry in Luke 1:30? Where does it say Gabriel?

Besides who wrote this? Are you sure it was Luke? If so where did he get this information? Who told him this?

One more note.

Maybe you can shed some light on this. Im looking for the words of Jesus(peace be upon him). The origional Gospels are in Greek. Am I to believe that the origional words of Jesus(peace be upon him) are lost?

Peace,
Qazwa

[AlAyeti]

We'll start here.

Maybe you can shed some light on this. Im looking for the words of Jesus(peace be upon him). The origional Gospels are in Greek. Am I to believe that the origional words of Jesus(peace be upon him) are lost?

You do realize that Mohammed didn't write down anything? His soldiers did. How de we even know that Mohammed even talked to an angel at all? Since in fact this angel got the wrong son of Abraham? The christians didn't even change this.

AlAyeti wrote:
Quote:
Muslims believe about Jesus(peace be upon him) what our Holy Qur'an tells us.

In the Qur'an chapter 3, al Imran, verse 55.....

"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; and I will make those who follow thee superior To those who reject faith".

Who wrote this "quote" from Allah? It wasn't Mohammed.

Does this include behaeding those that want to follow Christ as God? First off we should establish that people have the right to choose or not to choose Christ or Allah without a fatwa of sermon violence against them.

Quote:
We also believe he(peace be upon him) was a Messiah.

I know that. I have two copies of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Chapter 3 verse 49 in the Qur'an it says:

"and appoint him A messenger to the Children Of Isreal.

Why would a God that established his book with the Arab descendents of Ishmael send "a" Messiah to Jews? A different Gospel and all? Doesn't add up.

But the same angel that spoke to Mary told her that Jesus would be called "God is with us." That is "Immanuel."

Quote:
Muslims do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) was a Son of God.

Or, "The" Son of God.

I know that. If they did there would be no Islamic terrorism.

Quote:
We get this from the Holy Qur'an as well. It is mentioned in many verses but the one that sums it up best is chapter 112. al Ikhlas.

Say: He is God. The One and Only. God the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, Nor was He begotten, and there is none like unto him"

So much for the fellowship of believers in the book. In fact there is no compatibility nor reason to claim a connection at all between Muslims and Christians as believers in any similar books. The Christians believe it was Isaac that Abraham was going to sacrifice. And by the way, if sacrifice is meaningless then why would god ask Abraham for either son?

But this would mean that the "people of the book" got a different message from the "same" angel that brought the Koran to Mohammad.

Quote:
I can understand Christians being confused about how to get to heaven, Some say that the belief that Jesus(peace be upon him) died on the cross was a payment for thier sins.

That is because that is what the New testament clearly proclaims. The lews also believe there is no Saviour accept their God. Saving from what?

"Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world."

Quote:
But in Matthew chapter 19: verse 16ish Jesus(peace be upon him) says when asked "what good thing shall I do that I mat have eternal life?" Jesus(peace be upon him) answers by telling him "thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear fasle witness, 19: Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Basicly the 10 comandments. Was Jesus(peace be upon him) also confused about his religion?

Well, the text in context, seems to be about a rich person that was told to follow the Hebrew/Israel laws of the Ten Commandments, but then! sell all he had and give it away. He didn't want to and Jesus' followers asked Him "Then Lord who can be saved?" Christ replied, "What is impossible for men is possible with God."

Quote:
Then to add to the confusion of the Christians you have James saying in his book chapter 2 verse 20 "But wilt thou know vain man that faith without works is dead".

Was James confused too?

No this is a typical place where Islamic believers that are forced to be believers cannot see that Jesus is a choice not a command. There is no Imam on a rooftop calling anyone to compulsory prayer. Jesus is freedom.

James was referring to people that think they can sit back oir sit by and watch other people do either nothing or bad things. Christians claim the practice "a religion of peace" but hurt or oppress others that do not believe as they do.

Prove this. i can open the paper OF TODAY and see Muslims killing un-armed people TODAY.

You would think that letting God show people the way would be the best thing for followers of god to do.

There is nothing like Sharia Law in all of Christianity today. No country is dominated by a single religion BUT Islamic countries. Where, Christians are imprisoned and killed. See what Islam and Sharia is doing in Nigeria? And of course Indonesia and the mid-east. Nothing like this happens anywhere in the Christian church anywhere it exists.

"Faith" without works" is dead. Especially when a proponent of a religion harms those that are not fellow-believers.

I'm assuming this is why Muslim children murder people with suicide bombs. Any Jews or Christians exploding bombs on buses anywhere on Earth?

Quote:
I dont remember seeing a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) claiming that his blood would wash anybodys sins away. Can you show me? Im not well versed in the Bible. I am a student of it.

"When the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men t to Him." Nothing forced about that sir. No prayers demanded five times a day. God should be a free choice.

This one might work; "No one come to the Father except by Me." Or, "I and the Father are One."

Jesus said "I know the father." "He is the One you say is your God.

Holding up the cup He said: "This cup is is the new covenant between God and His people- an agreement confirmed with my blood which is poured out as a sacrifice for you." Luke 22:20

Also in Luke, from the mouth of Gabriel! "Don't be afraid Mary, said the angel, "for you have found favor with God." You will conceive and give birth to a Son and will name him "Yeshua." He will be very great and will be called the Son of The Most High! The Lord will give Him the throne of His ancestor David. And He will reign over Israel forever; His kingdom will never end." Luke 1:30-33.

Peace to you,

Please do not offer me peace. It is uncomfortable hearing it while muslims are beheading and killing innocent people worldwide. Please TELL THEM to deliver your message of peace.

No.
Beheading is not in order for those who associate partners with God according to Islamic law or anyother law that I know of.
Those who join partners with God and die doing so with knowledge that this is wrong (heanceforth this includes you) will face the punishment from God in hellfire. This is worse than a beheading.

Let people decide where to spend eternity then. I will be with the Son of God in the place He went to prepare for me.

"Immanuel" in not mentioned in the Qu'ran.

Of course not.

To call a person "God" is considered a form of idol worship.

Because it makes the thing worshipped equal with God. Jesus is God and equal.

Its forbidden in Islam to worship any other than God and a sin to join partners with him.

Then don't do it but please don't arrest and imprison and execute people that wil not become Muslims. Anyone.

We dont know what angel told Mary(ra) about "Emmanuel" if it were an angel or an evil spirit since we have no idea who wrote the chapter of Matthew so we can not varify its authentisity.

Though, it is clear that the Gabriel that spoke to mohammed got many things wrong about biblical history. If the revision and new revelation can wipe away past truths then Mormonism trumps Mohammed.

The people of the book who's messengers are Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them) recieved a message from God.

Though it appears they got a wrong message.

We dont know that Gabreal spoke to Jesus or Moses. We know God spoke to Moses directly. When the Angel Gabreal revieled his message from God to Muhammad(peace be upon him) it was a clarification of the previous messages so the details may differ.

God sent the same Angel but with different facts?

God did not give the exact same message word for word to Jesus(peace be upon him) as he did Moses(peace be upon him).

Yet God spoke to Moses and Jesus was God the Son. Mohammed got a different message from an Angel that should have known this.

Why not? Because people would think it is simply a copy from a previous message and not a new revelation.

The Bible is sixty-six books written over a thousand plus years. But, the same message, bad news and all.

What we watch for is contradictions.

Like an Angel that has different "facts?"

These are the red flags that tell us somebody is tinkering with scripture.

You don't say.

The conflicts you see between the Qur'an and bible are the result of fabrications, additions and human writings in what is now published in the holy bibles.

Humans wrote the Qur'an. That is a "historic" fact. the "words" of Mohammed were written down on all sorts of things. No mistakes in that kind of record keeping I suppose?

"behold the lam of God takes away the sins of the world"

I dont know what chapter you got that from but it sounds like Paul.

Sorry, John. And, in the Gospels before paul was a Christian.

If Jesus(peace be upon him) could take away the sins of the world (he can not) what makes you think he had to be crucified to do this?

Abraham and Isaac err, Ishmael.

Especialy since he said he would not die.

Where is that scripture. Jesus clearly said He would suffer greatly and die. AND AS IS PROOF, so would His followers. I believe Islam is a good place to see prophecy proved here.

Still no proof that blood scarifice takes away sin. This is a man made idea.

An anti-Christian rabbi on an anti-missionary website claims that the lamb sacrifice was only for sins that people don't remember committing. Interesting what Jesus said on the cross about this. "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing."

Belief in Jesus brings salvation through repenting of sins you know you comitted and the ones you don't remember. Life is a busy place.

You wrote a quote from Jesus(peace be upon him) that I like.......
"What is impossable with men is possable with God" Nice! You are helping me out hear. So man can not take away the sins of each other. Very good! Nither could Jesus(peace be upon him).

You theology would lead you to this conclusion. People that do not want to follow Jesus have this right. I wish Islam would allow the same freedoms from it. Gos cannot be forced on anyone. Neither can a religion.

"Faith without works is dead" We agree on this point. As a Muslim I submitt myself to the will of God. That means my body, sole and actions.

Are you sure you want to there?

This is what Jesus(peace be upon him) did in the garden. I see a lot of good works by Christians in the world today and it tends to make me believe they are not led by satan.

Please tell this to Saudi Arabia. They are literally building people to think about Christians as targets.

Although they tend to deemphasise this for some reason and place the focous on belief only.

Faith without works is dead. Faith while killing someone is death to the other person. I choose Christ over Mohammed in that way.

Jesus(peace be upon him) said "no one comes to the father but threw me"

Completly true at the time he uttered it and now it is partly true.

So God can change His message and messengers? Then we both should be Mormons or Urantians.

In Islam if a person rejects *any* of the messengers he/she is considered a non-believer.

I know well the steel fist of Islamic beliefs. All Americans do.

So therefore is a person were to accept Jesus(peace be upon him) and reject John the baptist (peace be upon him) have they accepted Christ (peace be upon him)? I say no.

John the Baptist disagreed with you already. I must decrease and He must increase is a clear indication that John was a good guy and that's good enough. I await my time talking with him in heaven.

To accept Christ(peace be upon him) we must also accept what he said. Right? Think about it. To reject the messenger is to reject God. Jesus(peace be upon him) cautions us strongly. I think out of love.

Why is Islam so totalitarian and deadly? Its history has never stopped being at war.

"I and the father are one"

Inconclusive. This can mean that Jesus(peace be upon him) and the father were in agreement. Lets be careful not to read too far into this.

The Gospel of john disproves your point. Jesus is God.

Luke 1:30-33.

Jesus(peace be upon him) is talking about his blood. Thanks. I think that was what I was looking for. But Jesus says his blood. He is contradicting himself something afull if he claimed he would die because in Matthew 12:40 he said he would *not* die like Jonah(peace be upon him).

This is too bizarre for me to enter into here to indepth.

Jesus was stabbed on the cross as well. Romans did not miss their mark when it came to killing someone.

Gabriel was talking to Marry in Luke 1:30? Where does it say Gabriel?

Besides who wrote this? Are you sure it was Luke? If so where did he get this information? Who told him this?

Mohammed wrote nothing down. We both believe what has been brought to us by others. how do we even know a Mohammed even existed?

One more note.

Maybe you can shed some light on this. Im looking for the words of Jesus(peace be upon him). The origional Gospels are in Greek. Am I to believe that the origional words of Jesus(peace be upon him) are lost?

If the losers and traitors of Jesus wasn't washed out of the New Testament and Gospels I'm thinking that logic lends itself to the texts coming down undefiled.

Mohammed is a super hero. How convenient. And how do we know the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Because Mohammed told us. And how de we know that Mohammed is Allah's prophet? Because Mohammed told us.

I'm sorry man, that gives me some reservations.

[canadianhorsefan]

Phew. Been ages since I last posted here. Anyways....

You do realize that Mohammed didn't write down anything? His soldiers did. How de we even know that Mohammed even talked to an angel at all? Since in fact this angel got the wrong son of Abraham? The christians didn't even change this.

Soldiers? I thought more along the lines of his Companions and friends. See, he recited the Qur'an to them, and they memorized it. Word for word.
How do we know? Why do Christians believe that Jesus (as) was raised from the dead? Did they have videocameras to tape it for us? No. Christians believe that without question. Same for Muslims. After all, an illiterate person in one of the most backward regions of the world at the time wouldn't know about the different levels of atmosphere and that the world was round, would he? And angels never get anything wrong. They are created to do everything that Allah (swt) tells them, and it's not as if they have worries like us humans, about picking up the kids and being at the meeting on time. So, what did the Christians not change?

Who wrote this "quote" from Allah? It wasn't Mohammed.

Well, it would be written by one of his literate Companions or friends, and checked for errors and such by others.

I know that. I have two copies of the Qur'an.

How is that important?

Why would a God that established his book with the Arab descendents of Ishmael send "a" Messiah to Jews? A different Gospel and all? Doesn't add up.

Have you ever played that game where you whisper a message in a person's ear, and they whisper it in turn to another, and another, and another, until it reaches your ear again? Isn't it amusing when the message seems to change? Well, we aren't talking a couple of minutes here. We're talking years. Decades. Centuries. Think of how distorted it would be by then. Also, it is a fact that we are more advanced than people who lived before us. As we've gone through the centuries, people have become smarter. We made laws, writing, language. So, obviously, we could learn to obey more complex commands from Allah (swt).

Let me explain. Adam and Eve (as) were told to do anything they wanted as long as they did not feel guilt. Very simple thing to abide by. Then, it gradually grew more complex. People were told about life, about good and evil, about a lot of things, in greater detail. And of course, every advancement has its drawbacks. Terrorism, rape, adultery.... all common these days. So, religions seek to push us back on line. Prayer is obvious: Allah (swt) created us, so it is rather good to thank him for existing in the first place. Doing good and abolishing evil: obvious. Giving money to the poor: you should be glad you are able to live in an actual house, with a roof, and a bed, and a chair, and food, and running water......need I go on? I think I've pretty much proved my point, but if I haven't, your welcome to ask me about this reply I made.

I know that. If they did there would be no Islamic terrorism.

If we believed Jesus (as) was a son of Allah (swt), there wouldn't be Islamic terrorism? Well, sure. See, Christians tend to believe that, so I'm believing it would be Christian terrorism..... Just a thought.

So much for the fellowship of believers in the book. In fact there is no compatibility nor reason to claim a connection at all between Muslims and Christians as believers in any similar books. The Christians believe it was Isaac that Abraham was going to sacrifice. And by the way, if sacrifice is meaningless then why would god ask Abraham for either son?

We both believe in Monotheism. We both believe that we were born from Adam and Eve (as). We both believe that Abraham (as) was an ancestor of both the Prophets (as) that brought Islam and Christianity. Need I go on? And how was the sacrifice meaningless? Tell me.

That is because that is what the New testament clearly proclaims. The lews also believe there is no Saviour accept their God. Saving from what?

I have no idea where saving came from, since I sought to reply to this post only. My, am I lazy.

No this is a typical place where Islamic believers that are forced to be believers cannot see that Jesus is a choice not a command. There is no Imam on a rooftop calling anyone to compulsory prayer. Jesus is freedom.

No one is dragging us to the mosque now. If a person chooses not to pray, they can. Won't help at all, but then again, it's their choice. Same with belief in Jesus (as). You can choose not to, but believing he was a fictional character won't help either. Help what, you ask? Well, when you die and are judged on Judgment Day.

Prove this. i can open the paper OF TODAY and see Muslims killing un-armed people TODAY.

I'd rather not call you racist. But here's a thought: if some Christian came and said he hated the United States and wanted it wiped off the face of the Earth, would you call him a Christian terrorist? No. Why? Because it goes against Christian beliefs to annihilate a whole nation. Rather, he seeks to wipe it off the face of the Earth because of political reasons, whether it be world domination or he simply hates the United States. Same with Muslims. Except if it just so happens that a person decided he was doing something "In the Name of Islam", people tend to believe that it has to do with Islam. Ignore what they say, and focus on the basic teachings of Islam. Yes, you may have read it says to 'kill the infidels' somewhere. But that would be under the context of war. Why? Because it is a sin to kill someone (unless during war) and there is no compulsion in religion. Believe or not, it doesn't matter. But don't expect your neck to be saved in war all the time.

There is nothing like Sharia Law in all of Christianity today. No country is dominated by a single religion BUT Islamic countries. Where, Christians are imprisoned and killed. See what Islam and Sharia is doing in Nigeria? And of course Indonesia and the mid-east. Nothing like this happens anywhere in the Christian church anywhere it exists.

Of course not. Get drunk, cheat on your wife..... those aren't against the law, are they? Well, maybe drunk driving, but if you're drunk at home, who cares? In Islam, the law is based on the teachings of Islam. Nothing else. Why Christians are imprisoned and killed, I don't know. In case you haven't noticed, Saudi Arabia is controlled by a royal family. And this royal family thinks every woman must wear the hijab (even though there isn't supposed to be compulsion in religion) and won't let women drive cars (cars didn't even exist at that time, and I don't remember women being prohibited from riding horses and camels at the time). More detail?

I'm assuming this is why Muslim children murder people with suicide bombs. Any Jews or Christians exploding bombs on buses anywhere on Earth?

Terrorism first started in France, I believe. Or they developed that word afterwards. Anyways, forget bombs. Remember those serial killers? Maybe they don't kill a lot of people at one time, but add it up. Muslim children.....last time I remember hearing that was when teenagers in Lebanon drove cars packed with explosives towards Israeli army outposts and the like in Lebanon. Well, it wasn't as if the Lebanese Army was driving them out, and guns don't exactly work well against tanks. And time bombs and remote controlled ones are too expensive. Solution? Obvious.

"When the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men t to Him." Nothing forced about that sir. No prayers demanded five times a day. God should be a free choice.

Demanded? Do you see people with black glasses and suits with things in you ears knocking at your door and arresting you for not praying? No. So prayers are a free choice.

Please do not offer me peace. It is uncomfortable hearing it while muslims are beheading and killing innocent people worldwide. Please TELL THEM to deliver your message of peace.

Peace to your life, soul, country, whatever. Simply peace. I am Muslim, and I am against killing innocent people. Hey, I have an idea. I could give you two links in which Israelis (Jews, you know) massacred civilians. Another case when they watched it happen and did not prevent it. Two in Lebanon, one in Israel (or Palestine, at that time). Care to see?

Let people decide where to spend eternity then. I will be with the Son of God in the place He went to prepare for me.

He actually went off and went through the trouble of preparing it for you? I thought it was already repaired. Anyways, you say that he, Allah (swt), and some spirit are all one being. So, while you're with the son, where's the father-thing? With him? So the spirit would be too. Wait, isn't the spirit supposed to be entering peoples hearts? Hmm, confusing. *Sorry if if this particular post was inappropriate*

"Immanuel" in not mentioned in the Qu'ran.


Of course not.

Of course not? Why do you say 'of course'? Sorry if I didn't thoroughly read through this thread, but can you say who Immanuel is?

Because it makes the thing worshipped equal with God. Jesus is God and equal.

So, Allah (swt) asked Allah (swt) why He had forsaken Allah (swt). Or, to make it simpler, Allah (swt) asked Himself why he had forsaken Himself. Sorry, but does this make sense?

Then don't do it but please don't arrest and imprison and execute people that wil not become Muslims. Anyone.

I won't.

Though, it is clear that the Gabriel that spoke to mohammed got many things wrong about biblical history. If the revision and new revelation can wipe away past truths then Mormonism trumps Mohammed.

Now, what is a truth? One definition is: a fact that has been verified. wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
So, if by past truths you mean religious-type truths, then they are not truths per se; they are based on beliefs rather than facts. Hope this is making sense. Now, since they aren't based on fact, many people are able to say it's fiction. You can't defend your point, he can't defend his, and you're at a standstill. Without facts, you can never persuade someone without belief. Since Muslims believe that the Bible has been tampered with, or rather, the original message has been distorted and lost through countless revisions, additions, and subtractions, we chose not to believe in some of those past truths. Yet again, belief is a key player. I'm not so sure if this paragraph made sense at all....

I'll be skipping parts with similar things as stated above.

The Bible is sixty-six books written over a thousand plus years. But, the same message, bad news and all.

Hmmm. Now, where are they the same, and where is the bad news? Can you tell, with utmost certainty, who said what?

Humans wrote the Qur'an. That is a "historic" fact. the "words" of Mohammed were written down on all sorts of things. No mistakes in that kind of record keeping I suppose?

And aliens wrote the Bible? Well, parts were written, some people memorized the whole Qur'an, and by cross-referencing. Let's say I have a paper for a movie script. You memorized it. Another person......has a paper as well. Now, the person memorizing it got something wrong, according to one person with the script. Same for the other. So obviously, the person memorized wrong. He corrects his mistake and that's that.

Where is that scripture. Jesus clearly said He would suffer greatly and die. AND AS IS PROOF, so would His followers. I believe Islam is a good place to see prophecy proved here.

Who didn't know he'd suffer? The Jews hated him and wanted his throat. If you were in his place, you'd be thinking the same. Of course, everyone dies at one point. However, Muslims believe Jesus (as) didn't die yet. So, instead of die-resurrection, it's just resurrection. In a sense.

An anti-Christian rabbi on an anti-missionary website claims that the lamb sacrifice was only for sins that people don't remember committing. Interesting what Jesus said on the cross about this. "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing."

Belief in Jesus brings salvation through repenting of sins you know you comitted and the ones you don't remember. Life is a busy place.

The lamb Abraham (as) sacrificed, you mean? Well, that would just be his obedience to Allah (swt). Another lamb, I have no idea.

You theology would lead you to this conclusion. People that do not want to follow Jesus have this right. I wish Islam would allow the same freedoms from it. Gos cannot be forced on anyone. Neither can a religion.

Islam does?

Are you sure you want to there?

So, you don't submit yourself to Allah (swt) or His 'son'? Hmm, would mean you don't accept His Guidance. Something like that.

Please tell this to Saudi Arabia. They are literally building people to think about Christians as targets.

I'd love to.

Faith without works is dead. Faith while killing someone is death to the other person. I choose Christ over Mohammed in that way.

Death to the other person, yes. If someone took out a knife, you would just offer your neck, would you? Nice how few people don't do that and try to disarm the other person. And if the situation is bad enough, kill them. More neck offering, I think you mean.

So God can change His message and messengers? Then we both should be Mormons or Urantians.

Humans don't live thousands of years. We've gotten many messengers through the course of history.

I know well the steel fist of Islamic beliefs. All Americans do.

You know the steel fist of fudamentalist Islamic beliefs, which ignore messages of peace in the Qur'an and focus on parts that call for killing. Really, you can't just snatch out a part of the Qur'an and believe in that. You have to believe in the whole thing.

John the Baptist disagreed with you already. I must decrease and He must increase is a clear indication that John was a good guy and that's good enough. I await my time talking with him in heaven.

I thought that had no relevence to the quote, so I have no idea what to say about this.

Why is Islam so totalitarian and deadly? Its history has never stopped being at war.

Yeah, people in Arabia wanted us dead. Spain kicked us out too, because they wanted the whole country Catholic. The Crusaders thought that Jerusalem was their city and that the Muslims had no right being there. Too bad for people who were from Jerusalem and simply converted to Islam. So, which of these wars did we start?

Mohammed wrote nothing down. We both believe what has been brought to us by others. how do we even know a Mohammed even existed?

How do we know a Jesus (as) even existed? Makes you think, doesn't it?

Mohammed is a super hero. How convenient. And how do we know the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Because Mohammed told us. And how de we know that Mohammed is Allah's prophet? Because Mohammed told us.

How do we know the Bible is the word of Allah (swt)? Because Jesus (as) told us. And how do we know that Jesus (as) is Allah's (swt) prophet/son thing? Because Jesus (as) told us. Well, I don't agree with the Jesus (as) part, but it just shows, neither of us have full proof. We rely on beliefs.

Now, that was enjoyable. Took maybe an hour of my time, but well worth it. Even if I made a million mistakes in it, at least I tried.
Tried....right...

[Dilettante]

canadianhorsefan wrote:

Spain kicked us out too, because they wanted the whole country Catholic. The Crusaders thought that Jerusalem was their city and that the Muslims had no right being there. Too bad for people who were from Jerusalem and simply converted to Islam. So, which of these wars did we start?

It's not my intention to suggest that all Muslims are "the enemy", just to make a correction. Muslims invaded Spain in the year 711, and three years later Christian resistance started in the mountain of the north. Episodic fighting went on for centuries, until the 15th century. The expulsion of the Muslims sounds like an unnecessary abuse of power nowadays, but in the Middle Ages the concept of a political nation did not exist. People from minority religions were considered outsiders, foreigners. The same happened in Spain with the Jews. In those times, and those people, political unity required religious uniformity. In many Muslim countries it's the same even today. You can't build Christian churches in Saudi Arabia because they see that as a threat both religious and political.

[canadianhorsefan]

In many Muslim countries it's the same even today. You can't build Christian churches in Saudi Arabia because they see that as a threat both religious and political.

I remember something about Prophet Muhammed (saas) saying that he would have prayed in a church if he was sure they wouldn't destroy it and build a mosque in its place. Something like that. Point is, any house of worship can be prayed in, since it is a house of Allah (swt). Well, Saudi Arabia can have a proper Islamic government. But under that government, they shouldn't force people to convert to Islam or tell them they can't build houses of worship. It's wrong. But hey, what can I do? Catch a plane and tell the king that I dislike his government and such?

[unprofitable servant]

I have a question for those who are of the surrender. I was reading the Quran a week or so ago and an individual, who said he was an Palestenian Christian, began to tell me that the english translation of the quran was not the same as the arabic. I want to discuss this issue of Isa/Jesus without putting on this thread things out of a book that is diluted of truth. The copies I have are by Yusef Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall. Which of these can I bring into this conversation that will not make me look foolish because it is mistranslated or translated to cause error?