Experienced Meditational expert, would like to debate...

[joejoeson]

...Or answer questions.

Hi, I searched but could not find a meditation thread on here, I hope this is the right sub-forum. Anyways I've been a student of meditation for about 12 years and really enjoy it. I would be happy to debate it but I would also like to hear your meditational experiences. If you would like to hear mine I would be happy to share or answer any questions you have. If no one responds I will post a longer comment on what I view meditation as and how to practice it. Thanks.

[Divine Insight]

I feel as if I am that light, I am not just a body, or a statistic, I am the eternal light, it makes me happy knowing that I am part of something much greater than my mundane self.

I can fully appreciate this experience, and I don't dismiss it. However, I do question the need for it.

What I mean by that is, that I too have experienced the "White Light" sensation when meditating. It was indeed a very "real experience". I felt like I in a sea of white light, and that I was indeed this white light itself. I also felt totally detached from any physical body or sensations, and there was a profound feeling of "weightlessness" to it as well. In other words, it really did feel like a total detachment from all of physical reality including the sensation of gravity, etc.

That's all fine and good. It may even be an indication that this is our "natural state of being" in some metaphysical sense. I wouldn't argue with that. However at the same time it could just as easily be a cerebral state of consciousness that has practical secular explanations as well.

That being said, I would never knock the practice of it, as I can see purely secular reasons for even wanting to obtain such a state of consciousness.

But where I have a problem is with what you said above, and specifically the part quoted below:

it makes me happy knowing that I am part of something much greater than my mundane self.

This is the part I'm not fully understanding. For me, just knowing that I am part of this physical universe already tells me that I am part of something much greater than my "mundane self".

I think that's where I have a problem. What's wrong with being part of the universe?

Why is that considered to be "mundane"?

I have strong "spiritual" feelings just knowing that I evolved from this universe and I am in no way separate from it. This also gives me a feeling of being "eternal" especially in the sense that I will at least be as eternal as the universe itself since there is nothing I am that is not this universe.

In other words, entering into a meditative state of consciousness doesn't add anything "new" for me, as I have always recognized that just being part of the universe is already profound, and hardly mundane.

So where I would have problems with your way of thinking would be with the idea that being part of the universe is "mundane".

This is certainly not something worthy of "debate" since our subjective personal views on this are indeed precisely that, and therefore there is hardly anything to "debate" about.

I'm not suggesting that your way of thinking is "wrong", I'm merely suggesting that, for me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In fact, you have spoken about "enlightenment". From my perspective to simply understand fully that you are indeed a child of the universe, is "enlightenment" right there. A lot of people don't seem to realize this. In fact, when you suggest that being a mere physical human is "mundane" that suggests to me that you don't realize this either.

As far as I can see there is nothing "mundane" about being a child of the universe.

Moreover, if I could be a child of the universe once, then I could certainly be a child of the universe again, and again, and again, endlessly.

And here I'm speaking about the *I*, that you refer to, not the ego.

In other words, the *I* that is having an experience. I suspect that there was never a time when I was not, and there will never be a time when I will cease to be. And having an experience of entering a state of consciousness of pure white light should not be required to come to this realization. That is merely a state of consciousness, it doesn't confirm anything "supernatural" anymore than any other state of consciousness.

Moreover, if what you truly are is the *I* that is having an experience, then all of your experiences are indeed equally profound.

~~~~

I don't mean to take anything away from your meditations. I just think that the conclusions you are drawing from them could just as easily be drawn from what you refer to as the "mundane world".

You shouldn't need to enter into a state of pure transcendental consciousness to realize that you are indeed part of something much greater. But if that somehow helps you to "see the light" (pun intended) there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Just the same, to come back out of that state of consciousness only to refer to the real world as being "mundane" seems to be nothing more than a lesson lost.

[joejoeson]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

Well that is good that you feel connected to the universe and this makes you feel like an eternal part of it, but that is not a typical materialist mindset, and I also stressed the importance of not feeling like a statistic in our materialist driven society. For me, meditation brought me to an understanding of being one with the universe, for you maybe it was something else, so long as we both experience that then the end goal is the same. But by mundane self I mean the physical body which is mortal and subject to illness and death, this body is not immortal or eternal, so if you feel like you are part of the eternal universe that is great, but you must have gotten there through some type of intellectual or spiritual insight or something else, I won't pretend to assume I know how you got there, I'm just saying that a strict materialist probably would not regard their body or self as eternal since that would be too spiritualistic for them. I never said meditation was the only way to feel connected to the universe in a larger sense, so whatever way works for you is fine. For me I think understanding this vast essence of our being helps to break free of viewing our self as simply a body. That was what I meant with the mundane self. Now you could simply be happy just being a human, as humans rule over the animals, which is fine, but meditation could also help to allow someone to see themselves as an eternal part of the universe, for you maybe it was something else that helped to unlock this, I don't know, but since you also seem to have had meditational experiences, the sensations most likely overlap in some way.

But to really answer your question, why isn't being a part of the universe good enough? I would reply that being part of the universe raises some questions, namely, which part? I have a body, and that is part of the universe, but my body is mortal, so while the universe goes on, my body won't. You could then say that the matter that makes up my body will live on, but then I've lost my sense of identity. So I'd say the importance of meditation is not just to view yourself as part of the universe, but rather THE universe. I will be even more direct by saying that the goal of the Upanishads was to become one with the Self. Plotinus famously said that the goal is not to become like God, but to become God. The Hindu/Upanishad teaching of I Am That means there is no difference between your true Self and God. So I would say that being a part of the universe is great, but meditation teaches you to be one with God (or Self, or whatever term you are most comfortable using), and being one with God, means you are God. So that is the perfection of meditation, to completely leave behind any notion of the physical body and see your true self as identical to God.

[joejoeson]

You mention you want to 'debate,' but there is no issue presented for debate. This appears to be a discussion rather than debate.
Is there a particular position regarding meditation that you want to advocate or argue about?

There is plenty of room for debate. For instance, Christian teachings traditionally tell people that meditation allows evil spirits into the mind, I would be happy to debate that angle. Atheists or materialists could debate whether or not the soul or a True Self actually exists, or a skeptic might argue that a transcendental experience is simply the brain undergoing some type of chemical change and nothing at all spiritual. I also added "or answer questions" that part didn't fit into the thread title.

I sort of just assumed that people would challenge meditation as being unscientific. But to clarify:

"Meditation provides proof of a higher power, some may call this God, or a Self, or simply a spiritual truth. While meditation is subjective, and therefore does not seem to fit into the traditional definition of a concrete science, many people who have meditated share the same experiences, namely that they experienced a type of pure light, or calming sensation, or oneness of being. For those who doubt the efficacy of meditation, it is most likely because they have never tried it. To doubt meditation without having done it would be like doubting the law of gravity because you've never experimented with dropping objects towards the ground."

So, counter arguments?

and P.S. this is my first thread so I apologize for not being clear about the premise of the debate upfront. I will try to be more thorough next time.

[Divine Insight]

if you feel like you are part of the eternal universe that is great, but you must have gotten there through some type of intellectual or spiritual insight or something else, I won't pretend to assume I know how you got there, I'm just saying that a strict materialist probably would not regard their body or self as eternal since that would be too spiritualistic for them.

Yes, I have never viewed he world as most secular materialists tend to view it.

My "spirituality" comes from experiences I've had during extreme early childhood. I can't even put an age on it because I don't truly remember. But I do remember the experiences. I have had experiences that are hard to describe on many occasions. I would exactly call them "out of body" experiences, but they were kind of along those lines. The only way I know how to describe them would be to express them as a very profound feelings being being unable to tell where my body leaves off and the rest of the universe begins. Or to put that another way, they were very profound feelings of being "one" with the universe in a sense of not feeling the least bit separate from it in any way.

I had these feelings quite often and in very profound ways as a very young child.

I also had conscious experiences of the presence of a "higher mind". Although, I must confess to the secularists today that these feelings could very well have been nothing more than a sensation of recognizing the own vastness of my very own mind.

I mean, even though I had the feeling that a higher being was communicating with me in non-verbal ways, I can't say for certain that this was nothing more than my own consciousness simply reassuring me of perhaps things that I wanted to be reassured of. One thing the higher consciousness conveyed to me is the knowledge that I am indeed eternal and there was never a time when I was not.

But once again, I can't prove to anyone, including myself, that this wasn't my very own mind simply reassuring itself of its own speculations. I never really had any profound visions of any characters or Gods that I actually had direct conversations with. All of my experiences were of a simple "knowingness" that was assured to me by a higher consciousness. And as I say, I can't argue with a secularist that this wasn't anything more than my own mind confirming its own imagination.

None the less, my view of being part of something far greater has been from early childhood. As I grew I became interested in the natural sciences and I have become quite scientific in my view of the world. But none of that has changed my innate view of the world as ultimately being an eternal mystical experience. So my "spiritual" or "mystical" views have remained in tact. Nothing in science has ever caused me to doubt them. And as I say, I have been very well-educated in the sciences. There simply is nothing in science that contradicts my innate childhood view of reality.

I think also that many Eastern Mystical philosophies also echo and describe my own personal childhood views of a mystical reality. And this shows me that I'm certainly not alone in my thinking.

I do have extreme problems with your following statement however:

"Meditation provides proof of a higher power"

I would indeed argue against such claims.

I see no reason to claim that experiences during mediation "proves" anything.

On the contrary, no matter what experiences you might have during a meditation, all it can prove is that you have a vivid and active imagination.

Mediation cannot prove anything more than the fact that you have an imagination and that your brain can enter into a dream-like state. We already know this and this is nothing new. It most certainly doesn't prove the existence of a higher power. And especially not the existence of a higher "mind".

The only way to prove that claim would be to go into a state of mediation and come back out having obtained some information that you could not have otherwise obtained via normal secular means. And I'm pretty sure that no one has ever been able to provide any convincing proof along those lines.

So your claim that "Mediation provides proof of a higher power" would need to provide evidence to that effect. Otherwise it's not proof of anything. It's nothing more than a claim that cannot be supported by any proof at all.

Moreover, unless you can provide evidence for your claim, there's really nothing to debate. All you would be offering is an unprovable opinion.

The claim that a person must enter into the mediation in order to see the proof for themselves doesn't fly. That's almost as bad as Christianity claiming that if you haven't allowed the Holy Spirit into your life yet then you can't know the truth of Christianity.

In fact, it's just as bad really.

You'd need to provide actual proof. Not just claims that if people meditated they could find out for themselves. There are many secularist who have meditated and found no proof of anything. In fact, there are even mystical minded people like myself who have meditated and found nothing that proves anything there either.

Sam Harris is a very strong atheist yet he was really heavy into meditations and the Eastern Mystical religions at one time. He found nothing compelling there either.

He still respect the experience, but stands firm that there is no proof of anything there. And I totally agree with him on that point.

[Divine Insight]

"Meditation provides proof of a higher power, some may call this God, or a Self, or simply a spiritual truth. While meditation is subjective, and therefore does not seem to fit into the traditional definition of a concrete science, many people who have meditated share the same experiences, namely that they experienced a type of pure light, or calming sensation, or oneness of being. For those who doubt the efficacy of meditation, it is most likely because they have never tried it. To doubt meditation without having done it would be like doubting the law of gravity because you've never experimented with dropping objects towards the ground."

So, counter arguments?

and P.S. this is my first thread so I apologize for not being clear about the premise of the debate upfront. I will try to be more thorough next time.

By the way, if you start a thread entitled "Meditation Proves a Higher Power", you'll be swamped with secularists demanding to see this so-called "proof".

And you'll need to do far more than just say, "Try it for yourself and you'll see".

Because many secularists have meditated and some even still do for purely secular reasons. So it's not like they are unfamiliar with meditation.

[joejoeson]

[Replying to post 14 by Divine Insight]

Okay so I'm going to divide your post into three sections, the first section seems to contradict the second, and the third is suggesting that me telling people about meditation is as bad as the religion of Christianity, so I obviously have issue with that

So you say that you've had spiritual experiences since you were a child, but you keep inserting this notion that it could just be a secular thing, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but anyways you say that throughout all of your scientific education, you still have not changed your overall childhood spiritual experiences. I would say that this is the proof I am talking about, or 'faith' if you want to call it that, but basically it is something you experienced, and so no one can prove to your otherwise.

You then seem to contradict this by saying that meditation doesn't really prove any of this. I could say that there have been scientific studies done on people's brainwaves while in meditation that show the brain exhibits a particular kind of brainwave while in deep meditation. This would seem like some fairly valid 'proof' but in the long run it doesn't really amount to anything. For me, the experience of oneness is all the proof I need. I experienced it, no one can tell me otherwise. And I am here to share this experience with others so they can have all the proof they want for themselves. You seem to touch upon many of these themes that I am talking about, so while you may not agree with this, you also help to verify the effects of meditation (or for you it seems like just an innate thing, but it is very similar to meditation, so maybe you were spiritual in a previous life or something). Yes I am being a bit leading because I am telling people that they must meditate in order to have this proof, but why is that such an illogical premise? If you never experienced gravity before and I told you that a pebble and a bowling ball both drop at the same speed, you might think this is false until you do the experiment yourself. Even if I told you there was a youtube video of this experiment but you said, "Na, I won't watch it, I'll just assume you're wrong" that would be an example of a closed mind. So part of experiencing the proof of something is doing the actual experiment. Now you mention that some people have meditated and found nothing, but you also say "Sam Harris is a very strong atheist yet he was really heavy into meditations and the Eastern Mystical religions at one time. He found nothing compelling there either." Well so he was heavy into meditaiton...but found nothing compelling. I have to question this statement. How can someone be heavy into something, but find nothing compelling? At the very least something interested him. If he meditated and decided "oh well this is just my imagination" I doubt he would be heavily invested in it. Plus getting back to the theory of gravity, let's say you release the bowling ball a split second before the pebble, the experiment would go wrong, or let's say you try and test out this theory of gravity and test a feather against a pebble, obviously the pebble would fall first, and you'd say "aha! you're wrong" but what you were doing wrong was not realizing that the feather is slowed down by wind resistance, so maybe Sam Harris was too deep into Eastern Mysticism which tends to be nihilistic, so obviously he found nothing compelling because he didn't do meditation correctly. So just as you can't discount science because someone did the experiment wrong, so too you have to understand how to meditate correctly, which I would be happy to share with anyone.

Your final segment equates meditation with the holy spirit, but Christians are saying that God or the holy spirit will come into you and somehow change your mindset. For some this might actually be close to the meditational experience, but it also seems to suggest that some outside entity is influencing your mind. Meditation is rather turning the mind towards yourself and experiencing what you see, it may be bad, it may be good, your mind might waiver, it really depends, you won't get enlightenment instantaneously, I had to meditate for many years before I could really appreciate the benefits of it, however I should add that almost immediately I felt positive feelings and felt like my previous addictions had subsided even after my first meditations. I'm also not part of any church or organization so if my theories are wrong then they are just wrong, but it's not like I am using this notion of meditation in order to hook people into some way of thinking or to make me money.

So basically I am sharing my experiences with others, and offering them advice, and if anyone is interested I would gladly debate my positions on these matters, but ultimately you have to see it to believe it. I can't just take a picture of "enlightenment" and say "here's the proof." I can take a picture of myself in a meditative state and you can see the relaxed and peaceful look on my face, but that probably wouldn't really be that convincing either, that's why I say, "try it and you'll see." Amazingly people will spend so much time doubting it rather than actually just trying it. I don't lose anything by people not meditating, because I can always at least learn more about how to discuss it by listening to different people's problems with it, like I am doing with you.

I'd also like to ask you if you've ever read the Bhagavad Gita, because you say "One thing the higher consciousness conveyed to me is the knowledge that I am indeed eternal and there was never a time when I was not." There is a passage that says "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." http://vedabase.net/bg/2/12/en

I just wanted to point out how this statement closely resembles what the B.G. says. So it's kind of funny debating this with you because you have a lot of innate meditation experiences even if you don't really meditate, yet you seem to be focused on this notion of a secular explanation for it and how even though you experienced these things this isn't really proof of anything. You have helped me to see that even if someone sees these great things about spirituality, they still might not believe it is adequate enough proof. Yet, you say that "my "spiritual" or "mystical" views have remained in tact. Nothing in science has ever caused me to doubt them." So I guess I am confused by this contradiction, you say there is no proof and yet you also say there is no reason to doubt your experiences and no amount of science can make you doubt them. To me, that would be enough proof. I guess you could say this is faith and not proof but if you personally experienced it, then to me that is sensory knowledge, and not just faith. Faith would be like believing God exists without ever really seeing him. Or having faith that tomorrow will be okay or having faith that your life will work out, it is something that you have not experienced but you have enough hope that things will work out, but if you actually experience something, that seems to be different than faith. I suppose this is just a semantically issue and I don't think it's really that important of one, but this is a debate website so if I didn't at least try to debate it I'd probably be kicked off, so then I couldn't talk about meditation at all.

[joejoeson]

"Meditation provides proof of a higher power, some may call this God, or a Self, or simply a spiritual truth. While meditation is subjective, and therefore does not seem to fit into the traditional definition of a concrete science, many people who have meditated share the same experiences, namely that they experienced a type of pure light, or calming sensation, or oneness of being. For those who doubt the efficacy of meditation, it is most likely because they have never tried it. To doubt meditation without having done it would be like doubting the law of gravity because you've never experimented with dropping objects towards the ground."

So, counter arguments?

and P.S. this is my first thread so I apologize for not being clear about the premise of the debate upfront. I will try to be more thorough next time.

By the way, if you start a thread entitled "Meditation Proves a Higher Power", you'll be swamped with secularists demanding to see this so-called "proof".

And you'll need to do far more than just say, "Try it for yourself and you'll see".

Because many secularists have meditated and some even still do for purely secular reasons. So it's not like they are unfamiliar with meditation.

I mentioned this in my other post but I'll repeat it, what do you mean by some meditate for purely secular reasons? Like just relaxation?

And I know how people are when it comes to proof, but they should understand what it is that they expect from proof. If God is immaterial, asking for material proof would be sort of foolish. If I can imagine things in my mind, how can I prove this? How do you know that your imagination works the same as mine. What if I said, "prove to me imagination is a real thing?" How do you do it? You couldn't, so I say, try it for yourself. Part of the proof is 1) I've tried it and I've reached a state of pure being, 2) other people have tried it and reached the same state, 3) I could bring up studies done on people who meditate and have changed states of brainwaves, but none of that really matters because none of it is really proof to some people. So just curious, what would be proof of a higher power as conveyed by meditation? Could anything be considered a universal proof? When I was in middle school and we were talking about geometric proofs, I always told the teacher I didn't buy the proof, and the teacher would say the proof was just too complicated to teach to the class, or he would teach it but it was just confusing, so aren't people doing the same thing when they demand proof but fail to understand it? Or people could just be skeptical like if you told me 1+1 = 2 and I said, where's the proof, and you showed it to me, but I said, no that's not proof, that's just using other numbers to prove 1 and 1 make 2. Proof is something that is like a statistic, it seems rigid and scientifically pure, but there is no such thing as a universal statistic. If you told me 68% of people like chocolate ice cream I'd say who did the study, how many people were questioned, what criteria did they use? Basically I could just be intentionally doubtful and so what's the purpose of trying to offer proof when people are unwilling to listen to it? However I will try to reasonably answer any questions or doubts, and try to prove my assertions through logic or some type of argument, that is the only way I can really offer any kind of proof. If you think this is wrong or if you have any suggestion of how I could change this, then I would be happy to hear, but I've been doing this for a while, and I've seen many counter-arguments to my claims, so I'm not exactly going to stop talking about meditation or trying to prove it, however difficult or impossible that might be. If someone was really sincerely asking for proof, I would say that meditation helped me to have a positive outlook on life and it cured me of my depression. That's good enough for me. Criticizing this because it is personal would be like saying exercise is no good because it only affects those who personally work out.

[joejoeson]

Sorry about being so wordy in my last posts, I'll try and summarize my thoughts

-you say that meditation doesn't offer any proof yet you said that no amount of scientific understanding has made you doubt your spiritual experiences, so this means you've experienced something that withstood the test of time.

-You say that telling people to "just try it" doesn't fly but all of science would be pointless without peer reviewed experimentation. So I tried it and it worked for me, now it's time for you to peer review and experiment yourself.

-You mentioned one particular atheist who tried meditation and didn't find anything compelling, but you also said he was heavily invested in it so he must have found something worth his while to invest that much time in it.

-True some people will doubt my proofs, but people can doubt anything, even the very basics of mathematics, so at a certain point I can't be hung up on their perpetual doubts.

-People have done studies on the brain while in meditation http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-12491/ho ... uency.html which shows that meditation changes your brain wave frequency.

[joejoeson]

Here is a meditation guide that you can do in order to see exactly what I mean when I say meditation. It is divided into parts, beginner, moderate, expert, choose whichever section best suits you. If you have never done it before then start from the beginning.

A note on posture: I sit in what is close to the half-lotus position when I meditate. http://www.beautifulonraw.com/images/co ... sSmall.jpg I actually have both feet touching the ground, not sure if there is even a name for this position, I do not really do asanas so I just choose the position that is most comfortable for me. This may not be the best position for you but it works for me. I do not recommend laying on the ground because the mind does not work quite as well in this manner, and anything more strenuous than a simple sitting position puts too much strain on the muscles and prevents the mind from being free. Meditation is different from typical Western forms of Yoga where the idea is to do some type of muscular Asana position or standing on your head. Meditation is about a simple sitting position which is beneficial for the mind and not necessarily for the body. If your muscles start to fall asleep then stand up and move about, numbness is fairly common, if it happens just move around a bit and don’t hurt yourself or stay in one positin for too long.

Beginner level Pre-meditation.

This is to help get your mind ready to meditate, it is for those who have a hard time even holding an object in their mind. It is a simple breath technique. Breath in through the mouth and out through the nose.

Level 1: Breath in for 2 seconds, hold for 4 seconds, and then out for 2 seconds. Repeat this until you feel at east and relaxed.

Level 2: Same thing, but instead breath in for 4 seconds, hold for 4 seconds, and then breath out for 4 seconds. At the end of this add a rest period so that your body is emptied of air and you hold this for 2 seconds. If it is too hard, then go back to level 1 and try again until you feel more comfortable moving on. So again the routine for this would be breath in 4 seconds, hold 4 seconds, out 4 seconds, empty for 2 seconds, then breath in again and repeat the process.

Level 3: Same process, but breath in for 4 seconds, hold for 8 seconds, out for 8 seconds, and empty for 4 seconds.

This is a good practice to do before you start to meditate to get your body and mind relaxed. If at any time you feel light headed just take a break and try again later.

Beginning meditation

Once you completed the previous tasks and feel like you can continue on, you are ready to do the very basics of meditation. Keep in mind there are no real fireworks at this stage, this is all beginning level and nothing very difficult, but you have to crawl before you can walk. Pick an area that is relatively free of noise and interruptions, someplace safe and quiet and preferably where you can be alone.

Level 1: Find an object that has some type of meaning to you, a piece of jewelry, a memento, an object that is simple, like a cross or something, and focus on it for 10 seconds. While doing this try and silence any internal dialogue going on in your mind, this is the most important part. Just look at the object and try to keep your attention fixed on it for 10 seconds, either counting to yourself or just concentrating on it until your mind starts to wander. Do this until you can focus on the object without your mind wavering or wondering off.

After you do this, try to focus on the object for 15 seconds, then 30 seconds, then 60 seconds. Do your best to try to silence the inner dialogue that will come up and try to distract you. Don’t think about anything, just focus on the object. Do this until you feel like you can comfortably control your mind and not let it wander.

Level 2. Do the same thing, but instead of focusing on a real object, think about that object. If you want think about the same object you focused on, since the imprint will be in your mind. Think about that object for 10 seconds without your mind wavering. If your mind starts to think about something else, return it to your object. Do this for 10 seconds without your mind fluctuating. When you can do this for 10 seconds, move onto 15 seconds, then 20 seconds, then 25 seconds, try and go as high as you can, all the while being careful to prevent your mind from having an internal dialogue or thinking about other things.

Level 3: Next, think about a lighted candle, specifically the flame aspect of the candle. If you can you can focus on a real lit candle so you can see how the flame behaves. Focus on it for 10, then 20, then 30 seconds, etc. Imagine the candle in your mind, specifically the flame aspect of it, and try to keep your mind from wavering.

After that, think about a light in your mind. So the progress is going from a lighted candle, to the light itself. Think about light, either an orange flame like you’d see on a candle, or a white light, or a blue light if you’d like. Think about just the light, keep focused on it until you can think of nothing but this light, without letting your mind wander or start an inner dialogue.

After you have mastered that, think about nothing. Just empty your mind of all thoughts, and focus on that for 10 seconds without your mind wavering. Focus on darkness, close your eyes if it helps, and prevent your mind from having any distractions. Do this first for 10 seconds, then 15, then 20, until you can eventually hold this thought for about 45-60 seconds without distraction.

During all of these exercises, it is important to prevent the mind from getting distracted, and trying to prevent as best as you can your inner dialogue, the ‘stream of consciousness’ as it were that usually keeps the mind occupied.

Moderate level Meditation

If you have worked on the previous exercises up to this point, you should have no problem with controlling your mind and especially silencing the inner dialogue. Next comes something a little more technical, it would be considered the real start of the meditation.

A phrase I will use is ‘breathing in with the mind�, it is not an actual breath of the body, but rather a kind of breath of the mind. There is an in-breath and an out-breath. So the goal is to try and breath in with the mind, then out with the mind. It would be like imagining yourself breathing, but there is also a bit of brain activity going on while you are doing this, almost as if it is your brain that is the one doing the breathing

Level 1: Say these words while performing this exercise: “I am breathing-in with my mind, and I am breathing-out with my mind. I am doing a short breathing-in with my mind, I am doing a short breathing-out with my mind. I am doing a long breathing-in with my mind, I am doing a long breathing-out with my mind.�

Just to reiterate, this is not an actual breath of the body. Just breath normally while doing this with your body, but focus more on the short or long aspects of this “mind-breath.� Do this exercise until you can start to feel a bit of a tingle in your head or brain region. This should not give you any kind of pain but if it does take a break.

Level 2: We will be doing the same kind of breathing in with the mind, but also focusing on the mind prior to the body. Imagine that your mind is behind your body, in the sense that it precedes your body. This is an important aspect to be aware of while doing this exercise. And again, say these words in your head or out loud while doing this.

“I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on my mind prior to my body. I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on my mind prior to my body. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on the impermanence of phenomenon, I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on the impermanence of phenomenon. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on the mind prior to the arising of thoughts, I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on the mind prior to the arising of thoughts.

Do this until you can feel your mind as being separate from and preceding your body. The breathing in and out is meant to relax the mind and free it from its normal hold within your head. Always focus on the mind that precedes the body.

Level 3: The next exercise is to illustrate the infinite nature of the mind, which will also help to focus on the mind that precedes the body. Say these words while focusing on the mind prior to the body:

“I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on that which is prior to my body. I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on that which is prior to my body. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on that which precedes the arising of thoughts, I am breathing out with my minds, focusing on that which precedes the arising of thoughts. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on the infiniteness of mind. I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on the infiniteness of mind. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on the immovability of the mind. I am breathing out with my mind, focusing on the immovability of the mind. I am breathing in with my mind, focusing on that which precedes all things. I am breathing out with the mind, focusing on that which precedes all things.�

Expert Meditation

These exercises are meant to get into the real heart of meditation, this does not hurt in a physical sense, but you might feel some mental restriction, almost as if it is a kind of mental pain. If you feel uneasy or distressed, then take a break. It takes some people years or at least many hours of meditation to get this far, so don’t be discouraged, but it shouldn’t take a lifetime (or two) as some people suggest.

Level 1: Focus your thoughts to the top of your head, and push them out of the crown of your head. Push them out as if you were physically trying to expel your thoughts from your head. Always do it upwards and out of the top of your head. You could even touch the crown of your head with your fingers so you can have a reference of feeling as you do this. Push your thoughts out of your head until you can actually feel your head experiencing a vibration. This vibration sounds like wind blowing through a tunnel. It feels like your brain is slightly vibrating. Continue this exercise until you can really feel this vibration and you can do it on command. Note that this is not imagination, it is an actual sensation, a kind of ‘head wind’ or ‘head vibration’ which you can feel on your forehead leading up to your head. If you feel any kind of intense pain you should stop, but you do need to apply a slight amount of mental force in order to break your thoughts free. You shouldn’t be thinking about anything while doing this, and it isn’t about forcing a thought to come to your head, rather it is pushing the thoughts upwards until you can feel the vibration in your head. This might take some time to perform correctly.

Level 2: Turn your mind inward, and towards yourself. Do this until your mind ‘pierces’ your self. Just as with the last exercise, it involves a type of mental force. Keep the mind and thoughts above your heart and slightly below the crown of your head. In you are consulting a chakra guide, it would be the chakra right before the crown of your head, the mind chakra, which is at the center of your forehead, typically known as the third eye. This is the general location of where your mind should be. Turn the mind inwards and pierce the mind in this location, until your mind is engulfed in a brilliant stream of light. Just like the previous exercise, this is not imagination. You are not simply imagining a light, but rather you are piercing the “fabric� of the mind so that the light is created on its own, as if it is now an unstoppable thought that you cannot even control. When you can achieve this, and can summon this light at will, then you are ready for the final stage of meditation.

Level 3: Summon the light within your mind. Do not just recall it or imagine what it was like to experience this light, but rather do the exercise where you pierce the fabric of your mind and experience this light. Then, with every ounce of your being, go towards this light, and merge with it, until the light dissipates and you are left with nothing but an awareness of your own being. Your mind should be calm and clear, without any thoughts, even the light has gone away. Do this again and again until you can do it at will. This is what is known as Samadhi, or transcendental meditation, it will obviously take some time and practice to get this far.

Congratulations, you now know what it is like to meditate.

[Divine Insight]

So you say that you've had spiritual experiences since you were a child, but you keep inserting this notion that it could just be a secular thing, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but anyways you say that throughout all of your scientific education, you still have not changed your overall childhood spiritual experiences. I would say that this is the proof I am talking about, or 'faith' if you want to call it that, but basically it is something you experienced, and so no one can prove to your otherwise.

As I've grown I've simply come to realize that the secularists have good arguments that my experiences were nothing other than a natural experiences of consciousness. I was simply experiencing my own consciousness and marveling at it as if it was a "higher Consciousness'.

In the end I have no choice but to confess that the secularists are perfectly correct in their assessment that my experiences serve as absolutely not proof of anything other than the fact that I was indeed experiencing my own imagination.

I also need to CONFESS, not only to the secularists, but to myself, that none of my "experiences" of a higher consciousness ever resulting in a seriously intelligent two way meaningful conversation where I actually felt that I was conversing with a totally separate sovereign entity. Nor has any of my "spiritual or mystical" experienced provided me with any information that could not be explained via my own preexisting knowledge, and normal human creativity.

So I have no choice but to face the TRUTH. None of my experiences proves anything. That doesn't mean that there can't be a spiritual or mystical essence to reality. It simply means that nothing I have experienced "prooves" that this is the case.

I can still accept my "intuitive feelings" that something greater may be behind this show called reality. Right?

I mean, my inability to prove any higher power doesn't mean there can't be one.

So I continue to believe in that "plausibility" on faith. And I see nothing wrong with this. At least I confess, not only to the world, but to myself that it is indeed nothing more than "faith" (i.e. wishful thinking)

You then seem to contradict this by saying that meditation doesn't really prove any of this.

How does that contradict any of my experiences?

I never claimed that my experiences were "proof" of anything. I have never made that claim in my entire life.

I could say that there have been scientific studies done on people's brainwaves while in meditation that show the brain exhibits a particular kind of brainwave while in deep meditation. This would seem like some fairly valid 'proof' but in the long run it doesn't really amount to anything.

A "particular kind of brainwave" doesn't prove anything other than the brain is capable of producing many different types of waves.

How would that be proof of a "higher power"?

For me, the experience of oneness is all the proof I need. I experienced it, no one can tell me otherwise.

Why should an experience of "oneness" be proof for a higher power? To the best of my knowledge modern science itself has already shown that it's physical impossible to truly divide the universe up into reductionistic pieces in any case.

Obviously we do this abstractly for the sake of classifying things and defining things, but if you ask any actual physicists if the universe can be divided up into definite small pieces very few would claim that it can be. In fact, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle pretty much demands that this cannot be done.

And I am here to share this experience with others so they can have all the proof they want for themselves.

Apparently I've had very similar experiences of "oneness" as you are suggesting. And that hasn't proven to me that there exists any "higher Power".

Have you ever given any thought to the possibility that you and I may have different criteria for what actually constitutes "proof" of something?

You seem to touch upon many of these themes that I am talking about, so while you may not agree with this, you also help to verify the effects of meditation (or for you it seems like just an innate thing, but it is very similar to meditation, so maybe you were spiritual in a previous life or something).

I don't deny the possibility of the things you are suggesting.

In fact, on a purely intuitive level I actually "feel" much the same way. I have dreams of being a primordial human. I even have had dreams of times when I was a non-human animal. I have even had very lucid dreams when I was merely the consciousness of a pre-animal environment (Possibly as the consciousness of plant life?).

But just because I have had dreams of being these things is no proof that I ever was these things.

I even wrote a song that actually describes my evolution from actually being planet Earth to becoming a human. If there's nothing spiritual to these ideas, then I certainly have a very vivid and creative imagination.

A secularist would claim that it's merely the latter. How can I argue against that?

I can't prove otherwise. Even to myself.

Yes I am being a bit leading because I am telling people that they must meditate in order to have this proof, but why is that such an illogical premise? If you never experienced gravity before and I told you that a pebble and a bowling ball both drop at the same speed, you might think this is false until you do the experiment yourself. Even if I told you there was a youtube video of this experiment but you said, "Na, I won't watch it, I'll just assume you're wrong" that would be an example of a closed mind. So part of experiencing the proof of something is doing the actual experiment. Now you mention that some people have meditated and found nothing, but you also say "Sam Harris is a very strong atheist yet he was really heavy into meditations and the Eastern Mystical religions at one time. He found nothing compelling there either." Well so he was heavy into meditaiton...but found nothing compelling. I have to question this statement. How can someone be heavy into something, but find nothing compelling? At the very least something interested him. If he meditated and decided "oh well this is just my imagination" I doubt he would be heavily invested in it.

I have no problem understanding Sam Harris' position. The only difference I see between someone like Sam Harris, and someone like you, is that you seem to jump to conclusions far more easily than Sam Harris is willing to do.

Sam Harris has even addressed this very issue. Different people are clearly impressed on vastly different levels when exposed to the very same experiences. So this is knowledge that we also have about the human condition that we cannot ignore.

Plus getting back to the theory of gravity, let's say you release the bowling ball a split second before the pebble, the experiment would go wrong, or let's say you try and test out this theory of gravity and test a feather against a pebble, obviously the pebble would fall first, and you'd say "aha! you're wrong" but what you were doing wrong was not realizing that the feather is slowed down by wind resistance, so maybe Sam Harris was too deep into Eastern Mysticism which tends to be nihilistic, so obviously he found nothing compelling because he didn't do meditation correctly. So just as you can't discount science because someone did the experiment wrong, so too you have to understand how to meditate correctly, which I would be happy to share with anyone.

The bottom line for me would be extremely simple.

Tell me something that you have learned from this "Higher Power" that you could not have possibly knew about or learned otherwise.

Without that kind of proof, any experiences you might have via mediation is nothing more than experiences that apparently far more impression on you than on anyone else.

I cannot say that I have encountered a "higher Power". Especially not one that I could actually have a meaningful conversation with. And short of that kind of evidence, I'm not about to go running around telling people that I have "proof" of a higher power, when that's simply not true.

Your final segment equates meditation with the holy spirit, but Christians are saying that God or the holy spirit will come into you and somehow change your mindset. For some this might actually be close to the meditational experience, but it also seems to suggest that some outside entity is influencing your mind.

Some "outside entity"?

What exactly do you mean by a "Higher Power?"

Perhaps before we discuss the topic much further you need to define what this term means to you PRECISELY.

This way we can have a better understanding of precisely what you mean when you use that phrase.

Meditation is rather turning the mind towards yourself and experiencing what you see, it may be bad, it may be good, your mind might waiver, it really depends, you won't get enlightenment instantaneously, I had to meditate for many years before I could really appreciate the benefits of it, however I should add that almost immediately I felt positive feelings and felt like my previous addictions had subsided even after my first meditations. I'm also not part of any church or organization so if my theories are wrong then they are just wrong, but it's not like I am using this notion of meditation in order to hook people into some way of thinking or to make me money.

Self-introspection is a very POWERFUL too. Any secular psychologist will tell you this.


Perhaps, people Sam Harris, and myself did not experience that type of phenomenon because we didn't have any "addictions" that we felt were problematic when we meditated. That wasn't our purpose for meditation.

So basically I am sharing my experiences with others, and offering them advice, and if anyone is interested I would gladly debate my positions on these matters, but ultimately you have to see it to believe it.

Well if you are suggesting that people who have addictions and other types of mental or psychological problems would benefit from meditation, I will support that.

However, that hardly constitutes "proof of a higher power". All it demonstrates is that taking the time to quiet your own mind will indeed lead to having more control over your mind. That makes perfectly good secular sense.

I can't just take a picture of "enlightenment" and say "here's the proof." I can take a picture of myself in a meditative state and you can see the relaxed and peaceful look on my face, but that probably wouldn't really be that convincing either, that's why I say, "try it and you'll see."

As I say, many secularists have tried it. In fact, there are even secular organizations that teach meditation as a valid psychological tool.

So the idea that people are refusing to try it isn't a very powerful argument.

Amazingly people will spend so much time doubting it rather than actually just trying it. I don't lose anything by people not meditating, because I can always at least learn more about how to discuss it by listening to different people's problems with it, like I am doing with you.

I still mediate to this very day. I have been meditating since the 1970's. I've given up on trying to reach a profound spiritual state because I'm not even convinced that there is such a thing. As I've stated before, different people react differently to the very same experiences. For all you and I know I may have had precisely the same depth of experience with meditation as you have had. The only difference between us is that you jump to conclusions about it that I am not willing to jump to.

That could be the only difference between us right there.

I'd also like to ask you if you've ever read the Bhagavad Gita, because you say "One thing the higher consciousness conveyed to me is the knowledge that I am indeed eternal and there was never a time when I was not." There is a passage that says "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." http://vedabase.net/bg/2/12/en

I just wanted to point out how this statement closely resembles what the B.G. says. So it's kind of funny debating this with you because you have a lot of innate meditation experiences even if you don't really meditate, yet you seem to be focused on this notion of a secular explanation for it and how even though you experienced these things this isn't really proof of anything.

Yes I do have some passing familiarity with the Bhagavad Gita and it's reassuring to see that other humans have expressed similar feelings and experiences as I have felt. But that does not constitute proof of a higher power. It it shows is that often times many humans thing very much alike, which really shouldn't come as much of a surprise since we are all related with over millions of years of evolutionary ancestry behind us.

I can also find places in the Bible, both the Old Testament, and with Jesus that express thoughts very similar to my own. In fact, when I read about Jesus in the New Testament I think to myself, "Now there's a guy who thinks a lot like me".

So what conclusion am I supposed to jump to over that one?

You have helped me to see that even if someone sees these great things about spirituality, they still might not believe it is adequate enough proof.

Just because a concept may contain "Great Things" does not make it proof of anything.

Yet, you say that "my "spiritual" or "mystical" views have remained in tact. Nothing in science has ever caused me to doubt them."

This is true, but how does that constitute "proof" of anything?

I don't see your point here.

Just because I have strong intuitive feelings about something doesn't prove that it's true. All it proves is that I have strong intuitive feelings.

So I guess I am confused by this contradiction, you say there is no proof and yet you also say there is no reason to doubt your experiences and no amount of science can make you doubt them.

It's not the slightest bit of a "contradiction" because I never claimed to KNOW that anything is true.

My position is quite simple, and not the least bit contradictory:

My intuition is that their may be a spiritual, mystical, or magical essence to reality.

Intellectually I hold that my intuition may be true.

Scientifically I hold that it is "plausible" and has not been ruled out by science (despite what some atheists or skeptic may claim).

That hardly constitute PROOF that my intuition is true.

There is absolutely no contradiction in my position whatsoever.

But what quite often does exist is a gross misunderstanding of my position by other people as you are definitely not the first to suggest that my position is contradictory.

To me, that would be enough proof.

Intuition is proof?

Clearly you and I have vastly different criteria for what constitutes proof of anything.

I guess you could say this is faith and not proof but if you personally experienced it, then to me that is sensory knowledge, and not just faith. Faith would be like believing God exists without ever really seeing him.

I never claimed to have seen any "Gods".

What I had was an experience that I attributed to a possibly higher consciousness. Especially when I was a young child. Later, after becoming a mature adult and learning secular view I could see where the secularists could indeed be correct. What I experienced as being a "higher power" may have been nothing more than my very own brain.

I cannot disprove that secular claim. Can you?

I am certain that many secularists would LOVE to debate with you are that topic.

Or having faith that tomorrow will be okay or having faith that your life will work out, it is something that you have not experienced but you have enough hope that things will work out, but if you actually experience something, that seems to be different than faith. I suppose this is just a semantically issue and I don't think it's really that important of one, but this is a debate website so if I didn't at least try to debate it I'd probably be kicked off, so then I couldn't talk about meditation at all.

You don't need to make outrageous claims to discuss meditation. Nor do you need to "debate" it. You can always discuss it in General Chat. You could even discuss philosophical issues around meditation.

Also, you could simply start a debate topics that ASKS A QUESTION.

You can simply start a topic asking, "Does Meditation Proof a Higher Power?'

And then just allow people to offer their input on that debate topic. You don't need to take a hardcore stand that it does (unless of course you want to).

But you could argue for reasons why you thing it "might" at least be some sort of evidence. That would be a more realistic debate.

Storming out proclaiming that it's "proof" of a higher consciousness, probably isn't going to earn nearly as much respect as merely suggesting that you feel that it has the potential to do so.

But of course, you are free to do whatever you so desire.

I'm merely offering my views and opinions.

I don't see where meditation if proof of any higher power. But I do recommend it as a powerful tool for quieting the mind. I do believe that it has secular health benefits as well.

I also recommend Shamanic Journeying, but only to those who are both interested in it, and understanding it on some level. And again, I recommend these practices even to pure secularists as spirituality or a higher power is not really required for a Shamanic Journey to be useful and productive.

In any case, I hope you enjoy the forums and find conversations that you enjoy and benefit from.

Thanks for sharing your views.