Atheism is a leap of faith

[KanzulHuda786]

[AdHoc]

When the average person uses the word "theory" they mean something totally different than when a scientist uses the word "theory". In a similar way I think you are using the word "faith" alot different that Christians do.

I'm sure you're right.

In fact, most Christians probably don't even truly think very deeply about what it even means to have "faith".

But there are clearly two major schools of thought.

One is that "faith" means precisely as I described it. A hope that God exists. (or more truthfully) A pretense that they know God exists.

Often times when people have difficulty "keeping the faith" this is the kind of faith they are speaking of. They are having difficulty in maintaining a believe that God even exists at all.

But for those who have convinced themselves that they "know" God exists, they no longer need to associate "faith" with this, becasue they have already convinced themselves that they know that to be true. So for them Faith takes on a whole new meaning,....

Now Faith = Trust.

When they say they have "Faith" in God, what they mean is that they already know that God exists, but that they also know that they can trust God completely.

So for them, the very idea of "losing faith" or even having "weak faith" is a meaningless concept. After all, if you've already convinced yourself that you know God exists, and "faith" to you means "trust", then it's going to be easy for you to "trust" in a God that you have already convinced yourself that you know exists.

So yes, I'm aware of these two different concepts of "faith".

Surprisingly (even to me) I have far more faith of the latter kind than I do of the former kind.

By this I mean, that I have complete "Trust" in God, even though I intellectually realize that there may not even be a God.

That might be hard for some people to understand. But it's not hard for me to understand because, for me, if a God exists then by definition God must be trustworthy.

An untrustworthy God would be a demon.

So it's a given that if God exists God is trustworthy by our very definition of what we mean by our term "God".

So I have complete faith in God in terms of trust.

Whether or not God exists is an entirely different kind of faith. I have faith that God does exist. It may not sound like it to people who worship dogma. But to me God isn't dogma. I have absolutely no faith or trust in any dogma. Nor would I like to place my faith in any dogma.

I have yet to see dogma worthy of my faith or my trust.

I take it back, you do understand faith. When I use the words hope and faith in relation to God, hope means a confident trust and faith means an expression of action in response to that hope.

[Dantalion]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

[AdHoc]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

[Richard81]

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

To me, the belief in a god is silly. An invisible wizard in the sky is exactly the sort of thing a human would make up, especially ancient humans from the bronze age, when we didn't have science to explain things. Magic was the best answer then, but it is not now.

[Goat]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

And, here we have the logical fallacy as known as 'The argument from personal belief', as well as a misreprentation of the inflationary theory of the universe, and a whole bunch of logical fallacies .. such as using such terms as 'random point in time', and 'discrete explosion' ... as well as special pleading for God. So many logical fallacies, in so few words.

[AdHoc]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

And, here we have the logical fallacy as known as 'The argument from personal belief', as well as a misreprentation of the inflationary theory of the universe, and a whole bunch of logical fallacies .. such as using such terms as 'random point in time', and 'discrete explosion' ... as well as special pleading for God. So many logical fallacies, in so few words.

Oh wow. Its a logical fallacy to express an honest personal opinion? I'm not saying anyone has to take it as fact. And please tell me what logical fallacies the terms I used fall into? Or did you just mean that I am incorrect? 'cause that is something completely different.

[Dantalion]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

And, here we have the logical fallacy as known as 'The argument from personal belief', as well as a misreprentation of the inflationary theory of the universe, and a whole bunch of logical fallacies .. such as using such terms as 'random point in time', and 'discrete explosion' ... as well as special pleading for God. So many logical fallacies, in so few words.

Oh wow. Its a logical fallacy to express an honest personal opinion? I'm not saying anyone has to take it as fact. And please tell me what logical fallacies the terms I used fall into? Or did you just mean that I am incorrect? 'cause that is something completely different.

I think that what makes it a fallacy is that you seem to go from
-it can't be a discrete explosion at a random point in time (which is misrepresenting big bang theory), that's just silly!
to
-therefore, GODDIDIT!

do you see the leap you have taken ?

[Goat]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

And, here we have the logical fallacy as known as 'The argument from personal belief', as well as a misreprentation of the inflationary theory of the universe, and a whole bunch of logical fallacies .. such as using such terms as 'random point in time', and 'discrete explosion' ... as well as special pleading for God. So many logical fallacies, in so few words.

Oh wow. Its a logical fallacy to express an honest personal opinion? I'm not saying anyone has to take it as fact. And please tell me what logical fallacies the terms I used fall into? Or did you just mean that I am incorrect? 'cause that is something completely different.

Why, when you are presenting a logical argument, why, yes, yes it is a logical fallacy. It is also known as "argument from incredulity". I would suggest that you read up on logical fallacies. It might be educational.

[AdHoc]

@OP

Your analogy fails in that gold is actually proven to exist.
Yes, if you claim there is no gold in China (not the default position, we have no reason whatsoever to assume there wouldn't be any gold in a random country) you would need to provide proof by showing that no square inch of that country contains gold.

Its not the same if I claim that there is no flying spaghetti monster (default position).

you think it requires faith to state there is no rainbow colored Medusa underneath my bed.

Just going purely on "gut feel" it seems silly to believe in a rainbow coloured Medusa but I guess I would have to go out on a limb and say I don't think there's one under your bed.

But I think it would be more strange to imagine a universe where God doesn't exist, where everything that is came into being did so as a result of an uncaused discrete explosion at a random point in time. That belief seems silly to me on the order of rainbow coloured medusa silly...
just sayin'

And, here we have the logical fallacy as known as 'The argument from personal belief', as well as a misreprentation of the inflationary theory of the universe, and a whole bunch of logical fallacies .. such as using such terms as 'random point in time', and 'discrete explosion' ... as well as special pleading for God. So many logical fallacies, in so few words.

Oh wow. Its a logical fallacy to express an honest personal opinion? I'm not saying anyone has to take it as fact. And please tell me what logical fallacies the terms I used fall into? Or did you just mean that I am incorrect? 'cause that is something completely different.

I think that what makes it a fallacy is that you seem to go from
-it can't be a discrete explosion at a random point in time (which is misrepresenting big bang theory), that's just silly!
to
-therefore, GODDIDIT!

do you see the leap you have taken ?

Ahhh I see. I agree that this would be logically flawed, likely best described as denying the antecedent.

[Mr.Badham]

If I said "There is no Gold in China", and then you showed me that there was gold in China, I would believe that there is gold in China.

I am saying that there is no God, in the same way that I say there is no gold in China. Now show me that there is a god, in the same way you would show me there is gold in China.