Why, The Heck, Are YOU Here?

[DTho]

Hello,

My “name” is DTho, which stands for “Doubting Thomas.” If you’ll recall, he was the disciple that wanted to actually see some proof that the Resurrected Christ was who He claimed to be. That is pretty much become my attitude: Yes, I believe; however, I want to see some proof to justify my faith . . .

Roughly five years ago (give or take) I “stormed” onto the religion debate scene. Oh, let me tell ya, me and the Holy Spirit were gonna save souls left and right! No Atheist/Agnostic (hereafter A/A) could possibly stand in our way! I jumped right into the fray, boy-o! I did the “Creation v. Evolution,” I did the “God v. Gays,” I did the “Biblical Errors,” I did the “Justification of Hell,” the “Problem of Evil,” the “Supposedly Loving God,” the “Where Do Babies Go,” the “Morality is Relative,” and et cetera, etc., etc., and on and on, and so-on and so-forth (And, at the risk of sounding arrogant, if you can think of it, I’ve probably debated it). I did it all, and I did it ad nauseam . . . and then some . . .

I debated fellow Christians, Catholic and Protestant; I debated A/As, LDS and JWs, Jews and Muslims, Bahá'í, Wicca/Pagan, New Age, the occasional Satanist, and even a Paranoid Schizophrenic, et (innumerous) al . . .

You wanna know what I discovered after all this? After nearly a half a dozen years, and too many debates to count . . . ?

That neither side, faithful or faithless, believer or non-, ever gives a darn inch . . . not one . . . not ever . . .

Heck, in “all my years,” the closest thing to a “concession” I’ve probably ever seen is, in this very forum, when bernee51 went from being 100% sure that God didn’t exist to being “merely” 99.9999999999% sure that He didn’t exist. Woo-hoo! Yee-ha! Now there’s a victory for ya! Stop the presses! We got some serious news to print, let me tell ya!!

So . . . after all that “venting,” I guess the question would be:

What brings you here?

Are you here to “convert” others to your faith (or lack thereof)? To prove, if only to yourself, your intellectual prowess, to simply have a few laughs and/or kill some time? What? What purpose, if any, does your participation here serve?

Me? Now? Heck; mostly . . . just killin’ time . . .

-DT

[Corvus]

When I came here I was a deist, mainly because I thought it rather nice to have a god that would judge me relatively, and wasn't as nasty as the absolute monarch of the Christians. In a topic asking if I have changed, I believe I answered I have changed very little. But I will state here that my perceptions have grown as a result of this board. The same happened when I was at America's Debate, which gave me my first taste of politics at any depth. The only difference is that I got bored there due to the repetitive nature of politics, and the fact that as an Australian, most of it was useless to me.

This board also allows me to exercise my debating skills when I see something that catches my eye. I find this fun.

[ST88]

What brings you here?

Are you here to “convert” others to your faith (or lack thereof)? To prove, if only to yourself, your intellectual prowess, to simply have a few laughs and/or kill some time? What? What purpose, if any, does your participation here serve?

I am a writer by trade and habit, so I guess I could say that I feel the need to foist my views in front of other people just as a psychological neurosis. Like Corvus, I enjoy a good debate -- it flexes the mind and sharpens the rhetoric. In a perfect world, it should help you to confront your own views, making sure that you believe what you think you believe. We learn best when we are trying to explain our positions to others.

Why this particular forum? I'm not really a regular contributor to other forums, though I do have spotty participation in some. I don't maintain a blog, nor do I have a burning need to chat online with others. I'm a plodder. Because of a slight learning disability, I am a slow reader. I'm sure that some here at DC&R would contend that I write faster than I read, and that is true sometimes. This particular forum has it's tiny little rewards for that means of working. Some forums are predicated on the one-line joke or the flame or the opinionated blather. But this forum, as I have found, is predicated on logic and research. I'd like to think that this describes me as a person also.

And maybe it's because I see a lot of things here that I can really identify with, that have explained the essence of what I am thinking without myself having actually put it into words yet. I don't necessarily love it when I can read something here and say to myself: "I wish I'd written that" (my writer's pride wouldn't let me), but I can't deny that it's an enjoyable experience to connect with other people on this level.

That's why I'm STILL here.

[otseng]

What brings you here?

Are you here to “convert” others to your faith (or lack thereof)? To prove, if only to yourself, your intellectual prowess, to simply have a few laughs and/or kill some time? What? What purpose, if any, does your participation here serve?

I won't answer the question, "what brings me here?", since I don't think that question applies to me. But, I will answer the question, "why did I create this forum and what hopes do I have for it?"

I too have been a regular contributor on several other debates forums over the years. There has been many things that I have argued about, but my favorite topic is religious issues. But on the religious debate forums that I have visited, I do not tend to hang around for very long. They seem to attack people more than attack arguments. And I am not attracted to forums that do not have an environment of civility.

There are two forums that I frequented, Americas Debate and Rice Bowl Journals, in which the environments are generally civil. But, over time, they started to discourage/prohibit religious debates.

So, with my desire to engage in civil debates on religious issues, I embarked on creating this forum. The process has been relatively smooth so far. And it helped that I was active for years on AD and RBJ to give me experience on how I thought a debate site should be run. Also, since I know how to program in PHP, it allowed me to add features on this site that gives the forum a little bit more functionality.

I am also blessed that strong debaters have been willing to join as moderators. They have been a vital ingredient in growing this forum to what it is now. I do not really have much time to devote to this site as I would like. And the moderators have been able to maintain an exceptional level of civility here without much of my help.

I do not expect to convert any non-Christian to Christianity through anything I say on this site. Conversion can only be done by the Holy Spirit. The only thing I can do, and I think also the only thing God expects me to do, is simply to share what I believe. If God uses me to lead someone to Christ here, that'd be wonderful. If nobody comes to Christ through something I say, I still believe I have been faithful to what God has called me to do.

Like ST88 and Corvus has said, I believe debate allows one to sharpen and mold one's belief. A boxer can reach a certain level by boxing a punching bag, but he does not really grow until he steps into a ring and fights an opponent. Debates I feel are like that. But instead of using fists, logic and reasoning are used.

Also, like boxing, debates should not get personal. That is, boxers do not box each other because they hate each other. They box to see who has better skills. But, in order to do this, mutual respect is paramount. And this is the overriding principle here at DCR.

In addition to respect and civility, like ST88 pointed out, logic and reason are valued here. It wouldn't be much fun if everyone was civil, but no beliefs are being challenged. I'm not interested in just having a tea party with light social chatting. Though it's not bad to do occasionally, I prefer deep discussions on the important issues of life.

Some sites have civil debates on deep topics, but limit who can participate. I wanted a site in which anybody can participate. People of all extremes are welcome to participate as long as they abide by the rules. Someone can also say something crazy, but as long as they have a logical support for their position, it's fair game.

I actually have more thoughts on this, but that should be enough for now.

I'm curious also why other people come here. Let us know why you came here and decided to stay for a bit.

[mrmufin]

What brings you here?

I'm here for the babes. Definitely. It's the babes.

I like ideas. I like to debate. I like the mental exercise. I like the creative process. I like grammar. I like logic. I like to read. I like to write. I like the subject matter. I like the articulate expression and testing of ideas. I believe that the exchange of ideas is beneficial regardless of the fact that the conversion rate tends to be so low. If nothing else is achieved, at least we can gain some insight into what makes the other guy tick. Ultimately, nothing can be lost by individuals peacefully and rationally discussing their beliefs. It sure beats knocking the crap outta each other on the street due to our differences.

As to why I'm at DC & R, specifically... I like the civility, pace, and participants. I like that these forums are relatively young and seem to have diverse array of intelligent participants who are willing to take their time to express themselves. And not that I'm biased or anything, but I think that moderation herein is just and measured.

Regards,
mrmufin

[Bro Dave]

I love this question! Too few of us ever stop to ask it. I see many who come here to reinforce what they already believe. That’s okay, so long as they are aware that their belief structure is fragile. Those not aware of this, tend to react like a wounded animals when their beliefs are challenged. Not a good thing for any of us.

There are several reasons I like this site. First, is its openness to all points of view, so long as they are civilly expressed. Outside of the truthbook.com site, this is hard to find on the internet. The second reason I come here, is the quality of the participants. I find them to, for the most part, be reasonable and logical. The third reason I come here, is my core belief that it offers a wonderful seed opportunity actually to change the world! Now wait, stop laughing for a moment and listen. The worlds suffers from one insurmountable problem; A common reference we all agree on. Yeah, I know, it sound simplistic, and in a way it is. But remember, the Oscam (sp?) Razor thingy, has merit. For many, maybe most, this reaches to their religious beliefs. Unfortunately, these are usually “inherited”, and are completely emotion based. This leaves them our very foundations vulnerable to attack, and makes us very uncomfortable. And this, for the most part is where the brain cell get switched off, and the anger gets turned up! From this point little is likely to get changed on any side.

So, you ask, what do you propose? Well, I propose that we do indeed have that common ground. We just have not been able to dig deep enough through the emotional debris. There are a few thing obvious. We are here. We do exist, and we do have the ability to question that existence. It is our conclusions that seem to be the problem. So why do we come to such different conclusions, using similar data? in my opinion, it is in our core design. Whoa! I can feel the hackles coming up on the necks of the atheists. Not to worry, I love atheists, because they have already started using their brain to balance out their emotions. They simply have thrown out the ridiculous bit that some hold as “sacred”. I think its not so much that the reject the Idea of a Creator, as it is the God most religions describe falls short even of most human standards! You see, when you try to understand the Infinite, you are guaranteed to fail;Period. Humanity seems to have a built in magnetic attraction to peaking behind the curtain to discover ultimate answers. Naturally, they draw on their experiences and observations to create their model of God, using what ever their highest concepts are at the time. This works for a while, but after a few generations, the model starts to show sign of being less than their current highest ideals, and a “death of god” ensues. Of course what has “died” is their pitiful model of the Infinite!

I believe we can have world peace as early as tomorrow morning, if we can just come to understand that the common denominator we seek is that Creator. And the curiosity that brings each of us here, is that built in spiritual magnetic pull to want to know that Creator. Once we allow that ALL our models have ultimately to fall short, and no matter our descriptions, none will begin to approach the finite truth, we can all relax, and stop insisting only WE have the true vision of religion, and proprietary access to that Creator. Now we begin to appreciate that in the eyes of our Creator, each of us is an equal creation, and is equally valued and equally loved! And if love is not the common denominator, what hope would there be?

So what has all this to do with why I am here? I come here in the hope of moving us to see ourselves as truly a part of a rational, loving universe. I come here hoping that we can see we each are necessary in making up the diversity, which is the very heart of its design. It is, ultimately, our being unique in our expression, but with a common parentage that will brake the age old barriers which have divided us. Once we can celebrate our uniqueness, and cease to demand everyone agrees with the name we us for the Infinite One, or the ceremonies and rituals used to glorify our Creator, we can get to the business of turning the planet into a paradise for all.



Bro Dave

[DTho]

Hmmmm . . . . while I greatly appreciate the input I’ve received thus far, I believe I may have worded my question poorly (based upon what my intention was). Hmmmmm . . . .

Okay . . . let’s see . . . the mutual admiration society has well-expressed the appreciation for civility here (I like that too; I’ve seen, and, unfortunately participated in, my fair share of flame wars), the need to keep one’s mental sword sharp is good too.

I guess my question is more along the lines of: Why debate theological subjects? Surely one’s mental skills could be honed and maintained debating, e.g., politics. Hrrrmmmm . . . okay . . .

Revised question:

Is there something about the subject of God, specifically, that causes you to debate His existence or lack thereof?

In my experience, both sides (believer and non-) are, for the most part, implacably entrenched in their beliefs; no amount of debate can sway them one way or the other, so . . . why bother to try?

Thanks to all answerers, past and future . . .

-DT

[mrmufin]

Is there something about the subject of God, specifically, that causes you to debate His existence or lack thereof?

Well, yes. I live in a nation where the vast majority of persons profess a belief in at least one god. I do not --nor have I ever-- held such belief. Further, I suspect that those in the majority are sincere in their beliefs. I also suspect that the majority of folks who participate in online discussion forums have considered their beliefs; their beliefs are measured and reasoned. Ultimately, we've evaluated much of the same data, the same arguments, analogies, claims, metaphors, etc. and arrived at different conclusions. I find these differences interesting and worthy of discussion.

When I started participating in online discussion forums seven or eight years ago, politics was my topic of choice for many of the same reasons: I identify most closely with a minority political position, libertarianism, and I value the discourse of how and why persons have arrived at their personal positions.

In my experience, both sides (believer and non-) are, for the most part, implacably entrenched in their beliefs; no amount of debate can sway them one way or the other, so . . . why bother to try?

Though I'm not aware of any conversions which can be attributed to the DC&R forums, I am aware of (at least) one conversion at the CARM forums. But I don't think the goal here is swaying another to change, at least that's not the goal for me. I expect nothing other than reasoned, civil discourse on a topic which, unfortunately, is deemed taboo (or at least impolite) to debate in many offline social contexts.

Hopefully, the more important concept realized is that we are all individuals. We should not make assumptions about others based on their beliefs or lack thereof. While this is a fairly simple concept to articulate concisely, putting it into a practical and useful form often takes repeated exposure to examples of the concept. It would be pretty easy (and grossly irresponsible) for me to make assumptions about, say, Christians based on the statements made by the Christians that I know offline. Yet when I converse with, say, Piper Plexed or otseng or nikolayevich, I am readily reminded that there is a wealth of diversity of opinion coming from those who call themselves Christians. I'd say that breaking down stereotypical barriers is a useful and practical result of participation in online forums, and DC&R is an excellent forum for such discourse. While we don't need to change others, shattering stereotypes and false assumptions, I believe, is attainable and valuable.

Regards,
mrmufin

[Bro Dave]

Okay DTho, I'll try again, only with fewer words.

World unity.

Now, now, stop rolling your eyes. I really am serious! Our religious diversity is misunderstood, and is the root most of our international hostilities. If we can just see ourselves in a common framework, in which there is a place for everyone, we have a chance. I believe there is such a framework, and therefore worth all the hours I spend trying to hold it up for evaluation.

Bro Dave

[ST88]

I guess my question is more along the lines of: Why debate theological subjects? Surely one’s mental skills could be honed and maintained debating, e.g., politics...
Revised question:

Is there something about the subject of God, specifically, that causes you to debate His existence or lack thereof?

For me personally, I am fascinated with the subject of such beliefs. I have never really understood exactly why people believe in any type of deity or have the distempered fervor of a terrier hunting rats. I have my theories, but I guess you could say that I just don't get what all the fuss is about. I find believers and their views interesting in the same way that I find people with neurological disorders interesting. I will never be able to experience what they are experiencing, but the artist in me wants to understand it nonetheless. What makes people believe strongly in something for which they have only one source of information? But for the grace of God go I, as it were.

In may not shock you to hear that I think all religions are lies. Really big lies designed to explain the natural world and human behavior -- and exploited in order to control large populations of empires and kingdoms. How in the world did such dark-age ideas of how the world works survive to the present time? You may say that God willed it so. I do not have that luxury, so I must come up with a behavioral, sociological theory.

Specifically debating religion is more entertaining than debating politics, because the questions are more universal to the human condition. Debating politics must either have a context of which system of politics you're talking about, which is cumbersome, or else a context of which political philosopher you're talking about. I don't know about you, but I find the Bible a much more entertaining read than anything by John Stuart Mill.

Finally, the Judeo-Christian Bible, thanks to the Protestants, lends itself to a number of different interpretations, depending on which version you have or which culture you've grown up in. Coming from a background in comp lit, I'm familiar with literary theory and apply it to documents like the books of the Bible with impunity. It is interesting to see how people develop their world-view based on their reactions to it. It is also interesting to see and ponder how I have developed my world-view based on my reactions to everything else.