Why allow Satan and Co. to interact with this universe?

[agnosticatheist]

Why does God allow Satan and demons to interact with this universe?

Why did he create a universe such that Satan, demons, and the human rulers of this Earth, have so many tools to corrupt and manipulate humans?

Just take the internet alone...Sure, the internet can be used for good too. But, due to the nature of reality, it seems that more harm than good can come from stuff such as the internet.

Wouldn't a God who loves his creation and doesn't want to see them corrupted, try to minimize damage?

It seems that a universe without the internet would still allow for that all-crucial free will test, it would just make it much more difficult for Satan and Co. to cause as much damage as they do now.

If rebelling in Heaven against God was such a crime and they had to be sent to Hell and not wiped out of existence, why not immediately send them to Hell and prevent them from interacting with this universe in any way, shape, or form?

Their ability to interact with this universe seems excessive, and perhaps down right diabolical when you consider that we are still free creatures with the ability to do plenty of evil on our own without Satan and Co. ever being involved.

[SEMyers]

[Replying to post 9 by Yahu]

Powerful powerful post.

The ability to see and discuss the distinction between justification and sanctification is the crux of theology.

Those who do not have your deep spiritual insight will automatically confuse salvation with a process of sanctification.

Even fewer so called scholars understand that glorification is the next step in sanctification.

Powerful powerful post.
S. E. Myers

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

My basic answer is the same as in why does GOD allow evil acts if sin is established by intent only...

The temporarily evil sinful elect need to inter-act with the eternally evil folk to learn the necessity of their judgment.

Peace, Ted

Does this truly make any sense Ted?

Does that idea of a temporary evil sinful "elect" make any sense?

And what sense does it even make to speak of "eternally evil folk"?

All of these "souls" were supposedly created by this God creator anyway.

I understand your dismay that some Christians can double-think about these things and the attributes of GOD which I could never reconcile (and left the religion over) until I found PCEC which contends that
1. GOD did not create any evil person nor ever do any evil.
2. All evil was creature created by their free will.
3. Some people chose to become evil AFTER accepting GOD's promise of salvation from their sin so their evil is temporary. Others rejected GOD totally and HIS promises of salvation and without HIS help in overcoming their evil, it is eternal.

This essential difference between our definitions of the cause of evil render your assessments of who goes to hell for what are immaterial to my reality.

Peace, Ted

[agnosticatheist]

You presume that God would create a world where all beings were perfect.

But that presumption is not true. For if He did, then all beings would be Gods, and it would violate His own nature (a defining attribute of which He is the only God) and thus He did not do it. He *could* do it. But He will not do it, for it violates His own nature, and His own glory.

So, in other words, he cannot create a world where all beings were perfect. No amount of wordplay, para-logical reasoning, and/or mental gymnastics can allow you to squirm out of this one. Either he can create a world where all beings are perfect, or he cannot. I think that you don't want to concede that he simply cannot, because that makes it impossible for you to claim that he is all-powerful.

All created beings are thus, by default and definition, less than perfect. And all it takes is an inkling shy of perfection for sin to enter into the world. And once sin has entered into the world, it is very difficult to stop its corruption. Infact, corruption spirals.

Thus, it is a requirement that such a thing exist in this world....in order for this world to exist.

Does the universe have to be *this* bad? Are you asserting that this universe is as good as it could possibly be?

The existence of demons and fallen angels and wicked men...is not due to a lack of God, or a lack of His power and authority....but as a necessity for creation to exist at all.

First, in the OP I was not asking why Satan and demons exist. I was asking why they are allowed to interact with the universe.

Second, I don't see why the bolded part in the above quote is necessarily true. Could you please explain further?

What would heaven and earth be like if every single entity had the exact replica character qualities as God? What good would that serve God? What glory or benefit would it bring to His name if every being *was* Him? What kind of company would He have with replicas of Himself that were not unique in their own ways?

What would Earth be like? Better than it is now...

As for Heaven, if it does currently exist, I don't know what it is like.

Basically what you are saying above is that people have to suffer temporarily and eternally in order for God to receive glory and benefit.

If that is the case, wouldn't it be better to simply not create? If God is merciful, benevolent, all-knowing, and loving, surely he would realize that in order for him to get what he wants, people have to suffer (Strange how that's just like life on Earth, except for some reason, it's ok for God to do it, but not politicians, businesspeople, etc), and consequently, he would not create.

Part of loving someone is putting their own interests ahead of your own. Wouldn't God put our interests ahead of his own if he is indeed loving?

Our uniquenesses can only develop through our weaknesses. If we were perfect, we would be God, and we would not be unique. Thus it is, by definition, necessary that we obtain our uniquenesses through our faults and failures...which are the cause of evil in this world.

I thought our free will is the cause of evil in this world?

Apparently, Heaven is perfect, the people there don't sin anymore, there is no evil, no suffering, etc, and yet people have free will. Why didn't God just create everyone and put them in Heaven to begin with?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 8 by Wootah]

You can NOT earn your salvation!

Salvation is a gift. You could literally crawl into the kingdom in your spiritual diapers. You still get in but who wants to be a beggar on the streets of gold for eternity?

You have to earn your robes of righteousness and your position within the kingdom. The GREATEST level of overcomers earn a position within the throne room to share in positions of great authority.

Agreed, no evil person can save themselves by doing anything, which is why those who will not accept GOD's help cannot be saved.

Salvation is of the 'spirit'. Sanctification is of the soul or sometimes called 'salvation of the soul'. Glorification is the salvation of the body to our eternal state.

The judgemen happens at the time of the harvest, when the goods seed is mature...the only maturity which saves the good seed from being pulled up (judged) with the tares is a mature holiness.

Heaven is the experience of a full loving and holy telepathic communion with GOD and the rest of HIS church forever, untainted by any hint of sin as it has been removed from the created reality of heaven to the outer darkness.

Since our status on earth is all in GOD's hands, I do not think that our status (glorification) in heaven depends upon our lives but rather, since I believe we all existed in sheol before our births on earth and there chose election or reprobation, I believe our status will depend on how quickly we chose to become sinners after our election and whether our idolatry was for a non-elect or a fallen elect.

Peace, Ted

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]

Wheat is wheat and tares are tares. They are totally separated. The tares will stand the white throne judgement while the wheat will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ. They are two different events.

Yes, even wheat may be cast into the outer darkness but that is NOT the same destination as the unbelievers (tares). It is NOT the lake of fire. It is the lowliest position within the heavenly kingdom, the farthest from the throne of glory.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]

Wheat is wheat and tares are tares. They are totally separated. The tares will stand the white throne judgement while the wheat will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ. They are two different events.

Yes, even wheat may be cast into the outer darkness but that is NOT the same destination as the unbelievers (tares). It is NOT the lake of fire. It is the lowliest position within the heavenly kingdom, the farthest from the throne of glory.

Of course they are separate - I fight orthodoxy every day about their being separate.

But their is nothing in the good seed being gathered into HIS barn that includes the outer darkness...nothing at all.

The outer darkness cannot be in touch with the repentant or the perfect telepathic communion of love and holiness would be tainted forever and like the pinch of leaven leavens the whole loaf, so a pinch of tepeathic sin would reneder heaven evil forever. Whichis why only the repentant and perfect in holiness enter the heavenly state.

I must ask you to provide scriptural supports for these pronouncements...idealism seems to have overtaken scriptural reality.

Peace, Ted

[agnosticatheist]

[Replying to post 8 by Wootah]

You can NOT earn your salvation!

Salvation is a gift. You could literally crawl into the kingdom in your spiritual diapers. You still get in but who wants to be a beggar on the streets of gold for eternity?

You have to earn your robes of righteousness and your position within the kingdom. The GREATEST level of overcomers earn a position within the throne room to share in positions of great authority.

Agreed, no evil person can save themselves by doing anything, which is why those who will not accept GOD's help cannot be saved.

Salvation is of the 'spirit'. Sanctification is of the soul or sometimes called 'salvation of the soul'. Glorification is the salvation of the body to our eternal state.

The judgemen happens at the time of the harvest, when the goods seed is mature...the only maturity which saves the good seed from being pulled up (judged) with the tares is a mature holiness.

Heaven is the experience of a full loving and holy telepathic communion with GOD and the rest of HIS church forever, untainted by any hint of sin as it has been removed from the created reality of heaven to the outer darkness.

Since our status on earth is all in GOD's hands, I do not think that our status (glorification) in heaven depends upon our lives but rather, since I believe we all existed in sheol before our births on earth and there chose election or reprobation, I believe our status will depend on how quickly we chose to become sinners after our election and whether our idolatry was for a non-elect or a fallen elect.

Peace, Ted

Am I the only one that deep down inside gets a kick out of Christians arguing amongst themselves? I know I shouldn't.

[agnosticatheist]

untainted by any hint of sin as it has been removed from the created reality of heaven to the outer darkness.

Does this imply that the people in Heaven do not have free will?

[Danmark]

Am I the only one that deep down inside gets a kick out of Christians arguing amongst themselves? I know I shouldn't.

Moderator Comment
What you 'shouldn't' do is post one-liners that do not advance the argument. This personal remark has nothing to do with the topic.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Yahu]

Am I the only one that deep down inside gets a kick out of Christians arguing amongst themselves? I know I shouldn't.

All people are a mixture of truth and error. My entire point is that as a Christian grows in spiritual maturity they root out more error and have more truth revealed to them.

We as Christians start out as spiritual babies and grow in knowledge of spiritual things. It is to be expected that individuals are at different levels.

Those that are more knowledgeable are suppose to teach the less knowledgeable. It is when people attack the less spiritually mature that the problems come in and it also carries severe consequences.