Heaven & the Resurrection

[JehovahsWitness]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

[Checkpoint]

Truth is not determined by majority opinion, or error because it is held by a minority.

In other words: "we don't know" - which is very true. In matters spiritual common sense, of course, is often frustrated, so believing corpses will rise in whatever stage of life the corpse chooses to be uplifted is as good a theory as any other bit of human imaginative thought.

Thinking there is a spirit world which humans join is a rationalisation of ignorance. Thinking corpses free themselves of parasites and stench and rise recognisably (as 80-year olds, 20-year olds or babies) is not quite so rational and smacks of the absurd. But as you say, who knows?

I did not and do not say, "who knows", or accept words put in my mouth.

I say Jesus knows.

I'll take his uncommon sense over the common sense of those who don't know, every time.

[Donray]

The bible is full of contradictions. It was written by man and the NT was started at least 60 years after Jesus died. No one even knows who wrote the four gospels.

So the questions that needs to answered is how did people writing 100 to 300 years after Jesus know what Jesus said?

Could write down word for word what your grandmother said 50 years after she died?

So, one needs to prove that what Jesus is reported Delete repeated word have said is what he said.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 12 by Donray]

the NT was started at least 60 years after Jesus died.

So say some modern scholars. Others say it was mostly written before 70 AD.

Luke says this:

Luke 1:

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.

3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

So, one needs to prove that what Jesus is reported Delete repeated word have said is what he said.

There is no way to "prove" he said what is in the Gospels, just as there is no way to "prove" he didn't say those things.

I choose to believe Peter, as being a credible witness to what took place.

2 Peter 1:

12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.
13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,
14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

[Donray]

So say some modern scholars. Others say it was mostly written before 70 AD.

Luke says this:

The vast majority think it was written after 70 AD with most of it written between 100 and 300 AD. You can try to change history.

You also are aware that it is unknown who wrote the four gospels.

Even if they were written in 70AD that is 70 years after Jesus supposed death.

[Checkpoint]

So say some modern scholars. Others say it was mostly written before 70 AD.

Luke says this:

The vast majority think it was written after 70 AD with most of it written between 100 and 300 AD. You can try to change history.

You also are aware that it is unknown who wrote the four gospels.

Even if they were written in 70AD that is 70 years after Jesus supposed death.

History is what actually happened, which may or may not be what "the vast majority think".

History cannot be changed, and is not determined by counting heads or counted heads.

You are not aware of what I am aware of.

70 AD is not 70 years after his death, but less than 40.

[marco]

I say Jesus knows.

I'll take his uncommon sense over the common sense of those who don't know, every time.

And it is possible Jesus knew but unfortunately he communicated his most important sayings in cryptic terms. "Do this in memory of me," means what? "I am the vine and you the branches" could be the words of the President of the USA or a captain to his men or... I come not to give peace could be the words of Attila the Hun. So taking phrases that have been reported, rightly or wrongly, is no guarantee of truth since the next step is to find a meaning. Let the dead bury the dead!

[marco]

I say Jesus knows.

I'll take his uncommon sense over the common sense of those who don't know, every time.

And it is possible Jesus knew but unfortunately he communicated his most important sayings in cryptic terms. "Do this in memory of me," means what? "I am the vine and you the branches" could be the words of the President of the USA or a captain to his men or... I come not to give peace could be the words of Attila the Hun. So taking phrases that have been reported, rightly or wrongly, is no guarantee of truth since the next step is to find a meaning. Let the dead bury the dead!

And when we think the words are too simple to have an alternative meaning... Today you'll be with me in Paradise, for example..... up comes a comma and the entire meaning is changed: I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

It is a good intention to heed the words of Christ but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[polonius]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"?

Jesus affirmed that Abraham was in heaven in his teaching of Luke 16, and also when he said God was the God of Abraham in an argument with the Pharisees that God was god of the living, not the dead.

RESPONSE: Really? Or is this just a story that's written in the New Testament?

Reference: Excerpted from A Concise History of the Catholic Church
By Father Thomas Bokenkotter, SS

"The Gospels were not meant to be a historical or biographical account of Jesus. They were written to convert unbelievers to faith in Jesus as the Messiah of God, risen and living now in his church and coming again to judge all men. Their authors did not deliberately invent or falsify facts about Jesus, but they were not primarily concerned with historical accuracy. They readily included material drawn from the Christian communities' experience of the risen Jesus. Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories were told about him which, though not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him. For this reason, scholars have come to make a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by polonius.advice]

Regardless of who put the words there, the words are there so what do you think they mean?

[Donray]

26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

This was said by Jesus further on in the verse. Which means you never die so therefor you must be somewhere the instant your physical body is dead. So, your soul or whatever must go to reside somewhere.

No physical bodies will be resurrected because there will be none once rotted away.

This just points out all the inconsistences in the bible. It means what you want it to mean or what you were taught it means.

JWs want to mean one thing to match their beliefs and Catholics another to match there beliefs and both are correct in that the bible supports whatever you want.