Does disbelief in the atoning cross

[Elijah John]

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

[Wootah]

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

Don't worry about trying to find meaning in his crucifixion - try to find meaning in the whole horrifying event called reality with Jesus.

[Elijah John]

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

Don't worry about trying to find meaning in his crucifixion - try to find meaning in the whole horrifying event called reality with Jesus.

What are you talking about? Why would "reality with Jesus" be "horrifying"?

[Benoni]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

Your post demonstrates that you have no idea what I believe. I'm not even sure there is a Satan. But I do believe in God. And I have no idea how your post relates to the subject of this thread.

[Elijah John]

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

The notion that our sins crucify Christ is pious sentimentality.

IF an elect is under the promise of salvation found in Christ and that elect and no other sins, then Christ would have died on the cross for that one person. OF course Christians believe our sins put Christ on the cross - what else could?

The sins of the Romans and some of the Jewish Priests by the act of crucifying an innocent man. No one else's sins "put him there".Except perhaps the complicit mob who shouted "crucify him!"

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

Your post here demonstrates that you have no idea what I believe.

Actually it is those who believe that the Almighty and Living God is bound by Bibles and Quar'ans and Church dogma who believe in a "limited God" or who believe in limiting God. By contrast, I believe that God transcends all those things.

And regarding your charge that I believe God is "more evil than good" you obviously have not read my exchanges on these very boards against those who claim that God is evil. I have attempted to defend the Benevolence of God in each of those exchanges, as well as with every post by means of my signature line "the real YHVH is NOT a monster" as some here claim Him to be.

And regarding Satan, I'm not even sure he exists at all. Humankind with our free will is all but too capable of sinning on our own, without the necessity of an evil tempter, who it is said also abused his own free will to become the fallen angel.

So please, check your facts before you make ridiculous charges against another poster and misrepresent their positions. Better yet, avoid personal remarks altogether.

[Benoni]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

Your post here demonstrates that you have no idea what I believe.

Actually it is those who believe that the Almighty and Living God is bound by Bibles and Quar'ans and Church dogma who believe in a "limited God" or who believe in limiting God. By contrast, I believe that God transcends all those things.

And regarding your charge that I believe God is "more evil than good" you obviously have not read my exchanges on these very boards against those who claim that God is evil. I have attempted to defend the Benevolence of God in each of those exchanges, as well as with every post by means of my signature line "the real YHVH is NOT a monster" as some here claim Him to be.

And regarding Satan, I'm not even sure he exists at all. Humankind with our free will is all but too capable of sinning on our own, without the necessity of an evil tempter, who it is said also abused his own free will to become the fallen angel.

So please, check your facts before you make ridiculous charges against another poster and misrepresent their positions. Better yet, avoid personal remarks altogether.

I do understand what you believe Yes these is a Satan but he is nothing but a tool in the hands of a mighty God and can do nothing unless God ordains it. look at Job 1 where Satan had to ask God. Point two. Man has no freewill to save himself and has little freewill to do anything but be carnal which is how God created him. freewill is a religious word not a scriptural word when it come to the will of man especially when it comes to salvation. You JW god is evil.

[Elijah John]

But this interpretation holds, without necessitating belief in the absurdity that the Father supposedly needed His Son's blood-sacrifice in order to be able to forgive. "Adamic" or actual sin.

Are you suggesting I or any Jehovah's Witnesses have ever suggested God "needs" anything? The fact is God is entirely self-sufficient and needs nothing and nobody.

That said, however he has and will always respect his own righteous standards, and the ransom reflects this. This interpretation reflects explicit bible truths without necessitating belief in the absurdity that the Father supposedly did not redeem mankind through his son as taugth by some "fringe" christian independents.

JW

(Ha, ha, I think we're making progress here, at least you are acknowledging that I am a Christian, I'll take the "fringe" part too. Coming from a member of a fringe group, that is a badge of honor. )

--------

It seems so, but I am open to clarification. Perhaps I don't fully understand the JW concept of "ransom". If that is the case, then God didn't need blood, but we did in order to be "ransomed".

But that presents some problems. First, it really seems legalistic and doesn't that concept give Satan "legal rights"? (If Satan is the one to whom ransom must be paid.)

That's almost like the former president thinking he as the "legal obligation" to pay the terrorist regime of Iran, a ransom, though he didn't consider it such.

Second problem, the whole concept seems to be dependent on a literal Adam, which is not supported by science but only by a literal reading of Genesis.

Third problem, If Jesus is not God, (and you and I agree that he is not,) how can you escape the fact that the cross (or the stake) amounts to a human sacrifice?

Also, you seemed to have glossed over my points in post # 4 with supporting verses which indicate that Jehovah forgives for His own sake and for His Name's sake

No mention of "ransom" in those verses...at all.

Perhaps the whole concept of "ransom" in a Spiritual context is a metaphor that should be retired, or at least not literalized as so many Evangelicals and JWs seem to do.

[marco]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

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[Elijah John]

You JW god is evil.

Couple of things. First, I am not a "Jehovah's Witness". Secondly, please explain how Jehovah is supposedly"evil" from your point of view.