One religion's dramatically changing doctrines.

[polonius]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

Jehovah Witness views seem to change quite a bit especially when a previous prophecy fails. Changing views on the second coming is an example.

During the 1870s, he (Charles Taze Russell) also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when is Christ in his visible presence supposed to happen?

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Just like the song Changing, changing, ever changing. But thats a good thing because in time you may discover the errors in the JW positions.

Opinion noted. Anything else?

JW

RESPONSE:

Sure. Let's examine the Encyclopedia Britannica's current explanation of reality:

From the Encyclopedia Britannica, 2017,

The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.
When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.

During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher. He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus.

He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914. Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets"

Isn't this like children playing "Let's pretend"?

Perhaps we can examine other such views and do historical reality checks?

[onewithhim]

OK, I have noted that you don't consider my posts worthy of commenting on; you just totally ignored my post #8..... but I'm going to give another comment anyway.

Jesus was referring to the distant FUTURE when he said what you have quoted about the "generation." JW provided a link. Did you check it out? If not, you are not, apparently , interested in a legitimate discussion on the matter. Otherwise you would seek to understand JW's/our point of view.

I have explained many times before that when Jesus said that some standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom, he meant exactly what was revealed in the subsequent verses, when he took three disciples with him up to the mountain and there appeared before them in something similar to the bright-shining glory he would experience when he ruled as King. So they, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by onewithhim]

Indeed. I do try and explain my points thoroughly, and so do you onewithim. Still I personally don't like going around in circles with those that do not address or acknowledge the points I make. I think that we have both sufficiently explained the Jehovah's Witness view both past and current.

Peace,

JW

[polonius]

OK, I have noted that you don't consider my posts worthy of commenting on; you just totally ignored my post #8..... but I'm going to give another comment anyway.

Jesus was referring to the distant FUTURE when he said what you have quoted about the "generation." JW provided a link. Did you check it out? If not, you are not, apparently , interested in a legitimate discussion on the matter. Otherwise you would seek to understand JW's/our point of view.

I have explained many times before that when Jesus said that some standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom, he meant exactly what was revealed in the subsequent verses, when he took three disciples with him up to the mountain and there appeared before them in something similar to the bright-shining glory he would experience when he ruled as King. So they, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

RESPONSE: "Some standing here." Those currently alive. The plain meaning of words.
You can editorialize all you want, but that's what the words mean.

[onewithhim]

OK, I have noted that you don't consider my posts worthy of commenting on; you just totally ignored my post #8..... but I'm going to give another comment anyway.

Jesus was referring to the distant FUTURE when he said what you have quoted about the "generation." JW provided a link. Did you check it out? If not, you are not, apparently , interested in a legitimate discussion on the matter. Otherwise you would seek to understand JW's/our point of view.

I have explained many times before that when Jesus said that some standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom, he meant exactly what was revealed in the subsequent verses, when he took three disciples with him up to the mountain and there appeared before them in something similar to the bright-shining glory he would experience when he ruled as King. So they, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

RESPONSE: "Some standing here." Those currently alive. The plain meaning of words.
You can editorialize all you want, but that's what the words mean.

That's what I said, sir. "Some standing there" were Peter, James and John who went with Jesus onto the mountain and saw him as he would be "coming in his Kingdom." They got the message that he would be a mighty spirit person "dwelling in unapproachable light," as Paul stated at I Timothy 6:16.

[polonius]

OK, I have noted that you don't consider my posts worthy of commenting on; you just totally ignored my post #8..... but I'm going to give another comment anyway.

Jesus was referring to the distant FUTURE when he said what you have quoted about the "generation." JW provided a link. Did you check it out? If not, you are not, apparently , interested in a legitimate discussion on the matter. Otherwise you would seek to understand JW's/our point of view.

I have explained many times before that when Jesus said that some standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom, he meant exactly what was revealed in the subsequent verses, when he took three disciples with him up to the mountain and there appeared before them in something similar to the bright-shining glory he would experience when he ruled as King. So they, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

RESPONSE: "Some standing here." Those currently alive. The plain meaning of words.
You can editorialize all you want, but that's what the words mean.

That's what I said, sir. "Some standing there" were Peter, James and John who went with Jesus onto the mountain and saw him as he would be "coming in his Kingdom." They got the message that he would be a mighty spirit person "dwelling in unapproachable light," as Paul stated at I Timothy 6:16.

RESPONSE: Not at all, did the Transfiguration story involve all those to be saved.


1 Thes 4:

Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Transfiguration story did not involve all people and had nothing to do with a second coming.

[onewithhim]

OK, I have noted that you don't consider my posts worthy of commenting on; you just totally ignored my post #8..... but I'm going to give another comment anyway.

Jesus was referring to the distant FUTURE when he said what you have quoted about the "generation." JW provided a link. Did you check it out? If not, you are not, apparently , interested in a legitimate discussion on the matter. Otherwise you would seek to understand JW's/our point of view.

I have explained many times before that when Jesus said that some standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom, he meant exactly what was revealed in the subsequent verses, when he took three disciples with him up to the mountain and there appeared before them in something similar to the bright-shining glory he would experience when he ruled as King. So they, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

RESPONSE: "Some standing here." Those currently alive. The plain meaning of words.
You can editorialize all you want, but that's what the words mean.

That's what I said, sir. "Some standing there" were Peter, James and John who went with Jesus onto the mountain and saw him as he would be "coming in his Kingdom." They got the message that he would be a mighty spirit person "dwelling in unapproachable light," as Paul stated at I Timothy 6:16.

RESPONSE: Not at all, did the Transfiguration story involve all those to be saved.


1 Thes 4:

Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Transfiguration story did not involve all people and had nothing to do with a second coming.

I would agree, concerning the fact that the Transfiguration did not involve all of the disciples (Jesus said "some" of those standing here). The verses from I Thessalonians chapter 4 are concerning the disciples of Jesus who are alive in these Last Days, and who are of the anointed "little flock" that have the heavenly hope. The anointed ones who had died ("fallen asleep") will be resurrected and changed first, then all of the anointed who are alive will be taken as well. This is an event for these Last Days, before the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)

The Transfiguration occurred in the first century, and fulfilled what Jesus said about "some here will not see death until they see me coming in my kingdom." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that was fulfilled in the very next chapter (see Matthew 16:28; 17:1,2).

[polonius]

The Transfiguration occurred in the first century, and fulfilled what Jesus said about "some here will not see death until they see me coming in my kingdom." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that was fulfilled in the very next chapter (see Matthew 16:28; 17:1,2).

RESPONSE: No. The Transfiguration did not involve the Second Coming. Jesus hadn't left and then returned. He was still here.

And wasn't Moses who had already died part of the Transfiguration?

But you have a remarkable imagination to conclude that these were the same event.

[onewithhim]

The Transfiguration occurred in the first century, and fulfilled what Jesus said about "some here will not see death until they see me coming in my kingdom." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that was fulfilled in the very next chapter (see Matthew 16:28; 17:1,2).

RESPONSE: No. The Transfiguration did not involve the Second Coming. Jesus hadn't left and then returned. He was still here.

And wasn't Moses who had already died part of the Transfiguration?

But you have a remarkable imagination to conclude that these were the same event.

I don't know what you mean by "the same event." And Moses was not ACTUALLY there at the Transfiguration. It was a VISION of himself and Elijah. (Matthew 17:9)