Who wrote the Gospel we call "John's"?

[polonius]

This seems like a question the answer to which is self-evident.

Not really. Was the gospel signed or does it state John wrote this gospel?

If not, how is it determined to have been written by John?

[polonius]

John 19:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.� 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.� And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.

RESPONSE: If one considers the surrounding facts, one can see that "the disciple" spoken of isn't John the Apostle.

Can someone tell why?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

This seems like a question the answer to which is self-evident.

Not really. Was the gospel signed or does it state John wrote this gospel?

It is the testimony written by the "disciple Christ loved" (stated at John 21:24).

This disciple is one of the Twelve, since it is clearly pointed out that he was present at the last supper, and that he is the one who asked Christ which disciple was going to betray Him.

Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?�




This does not make him the apostle John. That is just tradition. But this does make Him one of the Twelve and an eyewitness. He is someone most people do not even realize is one of the Twelve. (because like Peter, he was also called by another name)




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE: How many people were at the Last supper? Were there only "The Twelve." Or did some women do the cooking and serving?

When evening came, He was reclining with the twelve disciples. And while they were eating, He said to them, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray Me.� Matthew 26:20


The person who was reclining against the Lord, and who leaned back and asked Him who would betray Him (whom Peter identified as the disciple Christ loved) had to have been one of the twelve apostles. Matthew clearly identifies that Christ was reclining with the Twelve. We can also see that the disciple Christ loved was indeed reclining with Christ in the following verse:

One of His disciples, the one whom [Jesus] loved, was reclining at His side. So Simon Peter motioned to him to ask [Jesus] which one He was talking about. Leaning back against [Jesus], he asked, “Lord, who is it?� John 13:23-25



The disciple Christ loved is definitely one of the twelve, reclining at His side at the supper.


**


If you were perhaps suggesting that the disciple Christ loved was Mary (as various groups have hypothesized), this cannot be. Because Mary is in a scene WITH the disciple Christ loved, not AS the disciple Christ loves.

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one [Jesus] loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!� John 20:1, 2

Both Mary and the disciple Christ loved are in the same scene, along with Peter. 3 different people.


I do not know if you were suggesting that, but just in case...


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 11 by polonius.advice]

Ah, I see by your own post (post 11) that you could not have been suggesting that the disciple Christ loved was a woman. He is clearly identified by Christ as a man, in that passage.

"Woman, here is your son."



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

This seems like a question the answer to which is self-evident.

Not really. Was the gospel signed or does it state John wrote this gospel?

It is the testimony written by the "disciple Christ loved" (stated at John 21:24).

This disciple is one of the Twelve, since it is clearly pointed out that he was present at the last supper, and that he is the one who asked Christ which disciple was going to betray Him.

Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?�




This does not make him the apostle John. That is just tradition. But this does make Him one of the Twelve and an eyewitness. He is someone most people do not even realize is one of the Twelve. (because like Peter, he was also called by another name)




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE: How many people were at the Last supper? Were there only "The Twelve." Or did some women do the cooking and serving?

When evening came, He was reclining with the twelve disciples. And while they were eating, He said to them, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray Me.� Matthew 26:20


The person who was reclining against the Lord, and who leaned back and asked Him who would betray Him (whom Peter identified as the disciple Christ loved) had to have been one of the twelve apostles. Matthew clearly identifies that Christ was reclining with the Twelve. We can also see that the disciple Christ loved was indeed reclining with Christ in the following verse:

One of His disciples, the one whom [Jesus] loved, was reclining at His side. So Simon Peter motioned to him to ask [Jesus] which one He was talking about. Leaning back against [Jesus], he asked, “Lord, who is it?� John 13:23-25



The disciple Christ loved is definitely one of the twelve, reclining at His side at the supper.


**


If you were perhaps suggesting that the disciple Christ loved was Mary (as various groups have hypothesized), this cannot be. Because Mary is in a scene WITH the disciple Christ loved, not AS the disciple Christ loves.

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one [Jesus] loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!� John 20:1, 2

Both Mary and the disciple Christ loved are in the same scene, along with Peter. 3 different people.


I do not know if you were suggesting that, but just in case...


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE:

Apostles were all disciples, but not all disciples were apostles.

I'm suggesting that some of the disciple that Jesus loved were at the last supper along with the Apostles.

John 19:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.� 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.� And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.

Note that Lazarus lived in Bethany about half an hours walk from Jerusalem when Christ was crucified. John the Apostle was a fisherman who lived in Galilee, three days journey away. Which could have taken Mary into his home within an hour?

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

This seems like a question the answer to which is self-evident.

Not really. Was the gospel signed or does it state John wrote this gospel?

It is the testimony written by the "disciple Christ loved" (stated at John 21:24).

This disciple is one of the Twelve, since it is clearly pointed out that he was present at the last supper, and that he is the one who asked Christ which disciple was going to betray Him.

Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?�




This does not make him the apostle John. That is just tradition. But this does make Him one of the Twelve and an eyewitness. He is someone most people do not even realize is one of the Twelve. (because like Peter, he was also called by another name)




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE: How many people were at the Last supper? Were there only "The Twelve." Or did some women do the cooking and serving?

When evening came, He was reclining with the twelve disciples. And while they were eating, He said to them, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray Me.� Matthew 26:20


The person who was reclining against the Lord, and who leaned back and asked Him who would betray Him (whom Peter identified as the disciple Christ loved) had to have been one of the twelve apostles. Matthew clearly identifies that Christ was reclining with the Twelve. We can also see that the disciple Christ loved was indeed reclining with Christ in the following verse:

One of His disciples, the one whom [Jesus] loved, was reclining at His side. So Simon Peter motioned to him to ask [Jesus] which one He was talking about. Leaning back against [Jesus], he asked, “Lord, who is it?� John 13:23-25



The disciple Christ loved is definitely one of the twelve, reclining at His side at the supper.


**


If you were perhaps suggesting that the disciple Christ loved was Mary (as various groups have hypothesized), this cannot be. Because Mary is in a scene WITH the disciple Christ loved, not AS the disciple Christ loves.

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one [Jesus] loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!� John 20:1, 2

Both Mary and the disciple Christ loved are in the same scene, along with Peter. 3 different people.


I do not know if you were suggesting that, but just in case...


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

RESPONSE:

Apostles were all disciples, but not all disciples were apostles.

I'm suggesting that some of the disciple that Jesus loved were at the last supper along with the Apostles.

John 19:26-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.� 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.� And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.

Note that Lazarus lived in Bethany about half an hours walk from Jerusalem when Christ was crucified. John the Apostle was a fisherman who lived in Galilee, three days journey away. Which could have taken Mary into his home withing an hour?

Ah, YES, excellent!

I apologize for misunderstanding what you were asking, and thank you for sharing that! I had not really even considered that (the distance to the homes).


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

Who wrote the Gospel we call "John's"?

There is ample internal evidence and/or circumstantial evidence that suggests that the fourth gospel was initially penned by Lazarus, the disciple "whom Jesus loved." The idea that the apostle John was the author does not hold to the truth of the N.T.

When we review the gospels, they should be understood to be (mostly) eyewitness accounts of events that took place during the time of the Son of God, on this earth. However, there are (at least) three major occurrences, which the apostle John witnessed that are not included in the fourth gospel: the transfiguration, the Gethsemane prayers and the healing of Jairus' daughter. This is highly unusual, since the first three gospels include these three important events.

The story of the sons of Zebedee tells us that these two men (James and John) would suffer the type of martyrdom, which the Son of God endured (Mark 10:35-45). So, for many to imply that the apostle John lived well over a hundred years and died of natural causes is just unrealistic and contrary to the great Christian persecution of the Roman Emperor Nero, when both Peter and Paul were believed to be killed. It would seem to be untrue, if someone would suggest that any of the apostles survived this period (about 64-67).

If not, how is it determined to have been written by John?

As in, most of these types of errors, they come after the religious leaders attempt to solve certain problems, which have competing sides. Hence, it is usually the most powerful side that succeeds and the general public just follows along (mostly).

[tam]

Peace to you,

There is indeed ample evidence from what is written that Lazarus is the "disciple Christ loved"... and also that Lazarus is one of the twelve apostles (considering that the gospel itself identifies the author as BEING one of the twelve). My Lord is the one who confirmed this to me, so I know it to be true. But here is some (more) support from what is written as well:




Lazarus is also named Simon. Lazarus and Simon the Leper are the same person. This is clear from what is written (and leprosy is the cause of Lazarus' death).

Matthew 26:6-13

While [Jesus] was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?� they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.� Aware of this, [Jesus] said to them,

“Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.�

There is a parallel passage in Mark telling the same story with the same people. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all lived in Bethany (as I am sure you are all aware)... same as Simon the Leper. Then at John 12 - still the same event - Simon the Leper is identified as Lazarus, and the woman who anointed his feet is identified as Mary.

Six days before the Passover, [Jesus] came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in [Jesus’] honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on [Jesus’] feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.� He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

“Leave her alone,� [Jesus] replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.�

One of the Twelve is indeed named Simon (other than Peter):

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor. Luke 6:12-15


Obviously Lazarus is not Simon Peter. Lazarus is the other Simon (the one who was called the zealot, but not because he was a member of that sect), Simon "Lazarus", the disciple Christ loved.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

... Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all lived in Bethany (as I am sure you are all aware)... same as Simon the Leper.

Yes this is correct; so we have Lazarus and his sisters and one Simon the Leper as all living in Bethany.

Then at John 12 - still the same event - Simon the Leper is identified as Lazarus

Not really. We have them all ATTENDING the same event.

While [Jesus] was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?� they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.� Aware of this, [Jesus] said to them,

... Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all lived in Bethany (as I am sure you are all aware)... same as Simon the Leper.

Six days before the Passover, [Jesus] came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in [Jesus’] honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on [Jesus’] feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

Lazarus is never identified or called Simon. All we have from the above passages is that both Lazarus and Simon lived in Bethany; and logically the two believers were present at Simon's house. In order for Simon to be identified as Lazarus, one of the two parallel passages would have to refer to the same house as Lazarus' house or attribute the same action (on the same occassion) one using the name Lazarus and the other Simon.

As it stands all we have is Lazarus present in a house identified as belonging to another man.


JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

And why would Lazarus' sister, Martha, be serving the dinner at another man's house?


Peace again to you!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

And why would Lazarus' sister, Martha, be serving the dinner at another man's house?

In should think that the women folk serving at a meal that amounted to a group feast would be completely normal at that time. I am not an expert on middle eastern custom but then I hazard a guess neither are you. The point is the picture is of the women attending to the men (including male relatives and non relatives) and it would maybe be an idea not to draw conclusions as to the bible narrative based solely on what would be socially acceptable or unacceptable in 21st century middle America.

There is nothing specifically explicit or even implicit in the text that points to Lazarus and Simon being more than two different disciples of Jesus living in the same town and attending the same event, save imposing western norms on a narrative written in a Middle Eastern context*





* Even today in many cultures when there is a special event with a number of guests non family members, especially the women join forces in cooking organizing and serving.