Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Question: If there are none good but God how can a not good being pay for my sins?
None good but God
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Wootah
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None good but God
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Wootah
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Post #11
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Eloi
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Post #12
To understand what Jesus meant we need to understand the difference between goodness and justice. God balances His justice with goodness in a very special way: if He applies only justice all unrighteous people would die inmediately, but He does not ... He is applying His goodness and being patient, and He still gives all the inhabitants of the earth, righteous people and unrighteous ones, everything they need to continue to live ... and giving time for every one to change and do what they must to live eternally.
Matt. 5:43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.
Imagine the owner of a grocery store. One day he closed his shop when it was scheduled ... A lady arrives when he is closing and she asks him to please sell her some food because she has run out of food for her family that day. If the owner does not sell her the food he is not being unrighteous, because the store is supposed to close when he is closing it. However, if he is good to her, he sells the food to the lady ... but by ceasing to apply his own rule, justice is no longer his priority ... goodness is.
God is putting His justice aside when allowing to many unrighteous people to live and still gives a chance to change ... He is being good. That is special in God, and what Jesus meant was exactly that no one is that way as God is. Jesus himself implied he is more a person of justice than a person of goodness. It will be Jesus the one judging the world.
Interestingly, when Jehovah told Moses that His angel (a special one with the name of God himself inside), Jesus himself before becoming a human, He said:
Ex. 23:21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you.
But about Jehovah, it is said:
Eze. 33:11 Say to them, ‘“As I am alive,� is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?�’
2 Pet. 3:9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
That is what Jesus meant: he is not as good as Jehovah is in the sense that he is more a person of justice.
Matt. 5:43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.
Imagine the owner of a grocery store. One day he closed his shop when it was scheduled ... A lady arrives when he is closing and she asks him to please sell her some food because she has run out of food for her family that day. If the owner does not sell her the food he is not being unrighteous, because the store is supposed to close when he is closing it. However, if he is good to her, he sells the food to the lady ... but by ceasing to apply his own rule, justice is no longer his priority ... goodness is.
God is putting His justice aside when allowing to many unrighteous people to live and still gives a chance to change ... He is being good. That is special in God, and what Jesus meant was exactly that no one is that way as God is. Jesus himself implied he is more a person of justice than a person of goodness. It will be Jesus the one judging the world.
Interestingly, when Jehovah told Moses that His angel (a special one with the name of God himself inside), Jesus himself before becoming a human, He said:
Ex. 23:21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you.
But about Jehovah, it is said:
Eze. 33:11 Say to them, ‘“As I am alive,� is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?�’
2 Pet. 3:9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
That is what Jesus meant: he is not as good as Jehovah is in the sense that he is more a person of justice.
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PinSeeker
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Post #13
Absolutely not. He's not differentiating between Himself as God the Son and Jehovah as God the Father at all. God the Son satisfied God the Father's perfect justice. This was His purpose of coming to earth the first time, and He will execute this justice at the Judgment. As God Himself, He could/can/will do no other; He and the Father are one.Eloi wrote: ...he is not as good as Jehovah is in the sense that he is more a person of justice.
As I said to Tam (and I'm sure you will disagree), He is calling the young ruler out for is calling Him "good" and not understanding what "good" really is and not believing/understanding that He is God in the flesh. This is why it's relevant to us, too. The young man obviously only thinks of Jesus as a learned teacher. How many times have we heard people today say, "Well, Jesus said and taught a lot of great things, but He was not who He said He was..." They do the same thing the rich young ruler did. So Jesus asks, then, in effect, "How can you speak of me in a term which can really be predicated of no child of man?" Thus, Christ answers the young man's address (and that of unbelievers even today) before He answers His question, reproving him for using a form of words without realizing its full import. Again, this is all plain enough; it's the very point Jesus (Jaheshua), God's Christ, the Messiah, was/is making.
Grace and peace to you.
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Eloi
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Post #14
[Replying to PinSeeker]
Maybe you are missing some important biblical points about Jesus career:
Heb. 2:10 For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
... 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; 9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.
... 7:28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.
As you (and others) can see, Jesus didn't come as a man ONLY to die paying a ransom ... That imaginary idea of a God the Son (idea totally alien to the Bible), causes many not to realize the reality behind the Son of God
A true Christian does not follow capricious arbitrary interpretations that are not directly deduced from logical reasoning based on the Scriptures, and which clearly do not sound natural but forced. That is why some people do prefer think that there are "errors" in the Bible, so they can deprecate what is said in a text every time they think that text contradicts their own personal interpretation of another passage.
Maybe you are missing some important biblical points about Jesus career:
Heb. 2:10 For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
... 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; 9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.
... 7:28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.
As you (and others) can see, Jesus didn't come as a man ONLY to die paying a ransom ... That imaginary idea of a God the Son (idea totally alien to the Bible), causes many not to realize the reality behind the Son of God
A true Christian does not follow capricious arbitrary interpretations that are not directly deduced from logical reasoning based on the Scriptures, and which clearly do not sound natural but forced. That is why some people do prefer think that there are "errors" in the Bible, so they can deprecate what is said in a text every time they think that text contradicts their own personal interpretation of another passage.
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PinSeeker
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Post #15
His "career." Chuckles... No, I'm not missing anything...Eloi wrote: Maybe you are missing some important biblical points about Jesus career:
Nope. Not "missing" anything, thanks. These passages speak only to Jesus's qualities as a man. One of the main points of the writer of Hebrews is to make clear Christ's qualification as the mediator between God and man, namely, the fact that He is both God and man.Eloi wrote: Heb. 2:10 For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
... 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; 9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.
... 7:28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever.
Of course not, but that was the main thing.Eloi wrote: As you (and others) can see, Jesus didn't come as a man ONLY to die paying a ransom...
Oh, I don't agree with this at all, really. Even true Christians can be mistaken about this our that in God's Word. Now, if a person is not mistaken about this or that and still denies it and calls it a lie, then that's certainly a problem.Eloi wrote: A true Christian does not follow capricious arbitrary interpretations that are not directly deduced from logical reasoning based on the Scriptures, and which clearly do not sound natural but forced.
Well... these are folks with preconceived agendas. They've already decided they're going to dispute or deny at least parts of the Bible. But even they are not beyond hope. God can change hearts, and the mind will inevitably (though not necessarily immediately) follow.Eloi wrote: That is why some people do prefer think that there are "errors" in the Bible, so they can deprecate what is said in a text every time they think that text contradicts their own personal interpretation of another passage.
But the very clear and simple Biblical fact is, God saves sinners:
* God the Father wills and calls
* God the Son redeems through His work on the cross
* God the Holy Spirit works saving faith in those who God the Father has given to God the Son, thereby making Jesus's work on the cross effectual for those whom the Father has called.
Grace and peace to you.
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Eloi
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Post #16
[Replying to PinSeeker]
I'll tell you what is funny That someone read in the Bible that God is one and His name is Jehovah and still is saying that is a God-trinity ... or that someone read Jesus questioning someone who called him "good" and saying WHY ME, ONLY GOD IS GOOD and still says that somehow 
what Jesus is saying is that he is himself some kind of God Son ... or that the expression God the Son is totally contrary to the biblical expression the Son of God and still people continue using it with such passion ...
Those things are funny, and still funnier is that people saying these funny things are trying to teach you how God touches people's hearts to help them rectify the wrong ideas.
This forum is fun.
I'll tell you what is funny
That someone read in the Bible that God is one and His name is Jehovah and still is saying that is a God-trinity ... or that someone read Jesus questioning someone who called him "good" and saying WHY ME, ONLY GOD IS GOOD and still says that somehow what Jesus is saying is that he is himself some kind of God Son ... or that the expression God the Son is totally contrary to the biblical expression the Son of God and still people continue using it with such passion ... Those things are funny, and still funnier is that people saying these funny things are trying to teach you how God touches people's hearts to help them rectify the wrong ideas.
This forum is fun.
Post #17
[Replying to post 12 by Eloi]
And when someone says 'Well, what I mean is....' they're not being direct. Which is also dangerous particularly when it comes to a belief system.
If someone wants others to do something, they need to say do this or that. If they can't be clear and concise - especially when they're said to be of a deity - they can't be trusted as any decent, perfect source material IMO.
I've always found this thinking to be dangerous and not something that promotes logical thinking. When we try to figure out what someone 'means' opens us up to personal bias and projecting, not of true understanding.To understand what Jesus meant...
And when someone says 'Well, what I mean is....' they're not being direct. Which is also dangerous particularly when it comes to a belief system.
If someone wants others to do something, they need to say do this or that. If they can't be clear and concise - especially when they're said to be of a deity - they can't be trusted as any decent, perfect source material IMO.
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onewithhim
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Post #18
[Replying to post 17 by Menotu]
Jesus was pretty clear when he delineated between himself and God (Jehovah). He obviously wanted to make evident the difference between himself and God. God Almighty has always been the supreme Being, the Source of all power and love. He brought Jesus into being, the first thing that God made. Thereafter the Son created using God's power. When Jesus stated "there is none good but God," he was placing Jehovah his Father on the highest pedestal, saying that He was far more righteous than any of His creations, including himself. That is merely a statement of immense respect and love. Jesus was without sin and always did what his Father wanted, but how can the Source of life be equal in goodness to His creations?
It is twisting and stretching to say that Jesus was trying to say in a roundabout way that he was God! That is not even possible if we are to take his words at John 20:17 seriously.
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."
He said God, the Father, was HIS God. No way could Jesus be God when he HAS a God.
Jesus was pretty clear when he delineated between himself and God (Jehovah). He obviously wanted to make evident the difference between himself and God. God Almighty has always been the supreme Being, the Source of all power and love. He brought Jesus into being, the first thing that God made. Thereafter the Son created using God's power. When Jesus stated "there is none good but God," he was placing Jehovah his Father on the highest pedestal, saying that He was far more righteous than any of His creations, including himself. That is merely a statement of immense respect and love. Jesus was without sin and always did what his Father wanted, but how can the Source of life be equal in goodness to His creations?
It is twisting and stretching to say that Jesus was trying to say in a roundabout way that he was God! That is not even possible if we are to take his words at John 20:17 seriously.
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."
He said God, the Father, was HIS God. No way could Jesus be God when he HAS a God.
Post #19
[Replying to post 18 by onewithhim]
I know of people who say he is God, but not God - the same but different. It might not be clear to everyone I guess
Was he? Aren't there people who proclaim the truth that can't agree to this? Seems that I've heard of them before but can't recall their name. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else?Jesus was pretty clear when he delineated between himself and God (Jehovah).
I know of people who say he is God, but not God - the same but different. It might not be clear to everyone I guess
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Eloi
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Post #20
[Replying to Menotu]
That depends on what is intended when someone is called "god" in the Bible. It is not a secret that in the Bible the word "god" (as we translate it) does not only apply to the Majesty in heaven ... but it is not a secret that the Majesty can only be one person, and that is why that person, Jehovah, is called the God of gods.
Deut. 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe, 18 executing judgment for the fatherless boy and the widow and loving the alien resident so as to give him bread and a mantle.
When someone is called like that is because there are others who can be called "god" in some other way, as all students of the Bible know, but only one is properly GOD, and that is not Jesus, or he wouldn't have said he has a God ... When someone is called "a god" like is Jesus in John 1:1 (for example) and that person called God to someone else, it is obvious that person is not the God of gods:
Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
That is why Jesus said this:
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
Jesus knows very well the difference and who is God and he knows Him:
John 7:28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.�
... 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like YOU, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.
... and all the followers of Jesus knew very well who is God:
Heb. 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
... 8:1 Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man.
That depends on what is intended when someone is called "god" in the Bible. It is not a secret that in the Bible the word "god" (as we translate it) does not only apply to the Majesty in heaven ... but it is not a secret that the Majesty can only be one person, and that is why that person, Jehovah, is called the God of gods.
Deut. 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe, 18 executing judgment for the fatherless boy and the widow and loving the alien resident so as to give him bread and a mantle.
When someone is called like that is because there are others who can be called "god" in some other way, as all students of the Bible know, but only one is properly GOD, and that is not Jesus, or he wouldn't have said he has a God ... When someone is called "a god" like is Jesus in John 1:1 (for example) and that person called God to someone else, it is obvious that person is not the God of gods:
Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
That is why Jesus said this:
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
Jesus knows very well the difference and who is God and he knows Him:
John 7:28 Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.�
... 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like YOU, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.
... and all the followers of Jesus knew very well who is God:
Heb. 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
... 8:1 Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man.
